Serious ALPA Payroll Support

GulfCharlie

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AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise

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Remember the 35 days we went without pay? Remember all the food and support the pilots showed us during that time? Send emails to your representatives, all you have to do is fill in your email/address and it will pull up your respective representatives.

Congress: Fund an extension to the Payroll Support Program

What if I don’t believe the government should finance airlines after they made billions since the Great Recession and used said billions for stock buybacks rather than saving for the inevitable rainy day they face when the business cycle downturns every ~10 years.
It’s funny, they’re asking for an additional $25 Billion after US majors spent $45 billion since 2015 in stock buybacks. So these CEOs can take in Millions when the economy is running smoothly, but run to the government for a handout when the market shits itself? Sounds like a foolproof business plan.
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the thousands of employees who had no say in those decisions but are losing their jobs, retiring early, And being asked to take on new roles. But it’s also stupid to finance these companies if they can’t make it through recessions. If we have to do this every ten years they may as well be permanently nationalized.
 

GulfBravoPapa

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What if I don’t believe the government should finance airlines after they made billions since the Great Recession and used said billions for stock buybacks rather than saving for the inevitable rainy day they face when the business cycle downturns every ~10 years.
It’s funny, they’re asking for an additional $25 Billion after US majors spent $45 billion since 2015 in stock buybacks. So these CEOs can take in Millions when the economy is running smoothly, but run to the government for a handout when the market shits itself? Sounds like a foolproof business plan.
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the thousands of employees who had no say in those decisions but are losing their jobs, retiring early, And being asked to take on new roles. But it’s also stupid to finance these companies if they can’t make it through recessions. If we have to do this every ten years they may as well be permanently nationalized.
Then don't send the emails?
 

Mike Kilo

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Thought I saw a video clip where trump said we will help the airlines. Was that an old clip maybe?
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
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What if I don’t believe the government should finance airlines after they made billions since the Great Recession and used said billions for stock buybacks rather than saving for the inevitable rainy day they face when the business cycle downturns every ~10 years.
It’s funny, they’re asking for an additional $25 Billion after US majors spent $45 billion since 2015 in stock buybacks. So these CEOs can take in Millions when the economy is running smoothly, but run to the government for a handout when the market shits itself? Sounds like a foolproof business plan.
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the thousands of employees who had no say in those decisions but are losing their jobs, retiring early, And being asked to take on new roles. But it’s also stupid to finance these companies if they can’t make it through recessions. If we have to do this every ten years they may as well be permanently nationalized.
I agree with you in spirit about the Airlines and their stock buybacks, 100% on board. If there is a next stimulus bill for the airlines the provisions against stock buybacks need put in concrete. If the airlines refuse to make that concessions then they can start leasing their aircraft or selling them. At this point we need to protect their workers but if the airlines are not fiscally responsible or solvent then they need to go bankrupt and allow new competition to rise or be nationalised.
 

GulfCharlie

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I think anytraffic was getting at was seeing if there was a different way to contribute / donate without it being a legislative thing. I support that sentiment.
I think there can be a legislative solution, but if you want tax payer money and to use that money to remain solvent then I have a problem. Terms and Conditions must be black and white without any chance of a loophole. If the Airlines refuse and want to spend the money how they want, then we circle back to the systemic issue of tax payer dollars being used as their personal piggy bank with our only recourse being to nationalise them.

 

AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise

Trusted Contributor
Messages
147
😂😂😂Nationalized airlines in the US 😂😂😂😂
To be clear I 100% adamantly oppose the idea of nationalizing airlines. However, Without federal bailout money they’d be bankrupt. All of them were hemorrhaging money in the early stage of the pandemic. If the taxpayer is on the hook to bail them out every ten years why should they be private?
 

JNev

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To be clear I 100% adamantly oppose the idea of nationalizing airlines. However, Without federal bailout money they’d be bankrupt. All of them were hemorrhaging money in the early stage of the pandemic. If the taxpayer is on the hook to bail them out every ten years why should they be private?
It’s just like taxing the billionaires, it’ll never happen and isn’t even practical
 

32andBelow

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3,237
To be clear I 100% adamantly oppose the idea of nationalizing airlines. However, Without federal bailout money they’d be bankrupt. All of them were hemorrhaging money in the early stage of the pandemic. If the taxpayer is on the hook to bail them out every ten years why should they be private?
No they wouldn’t. They would have yeeted half their workforce and routes
 

GulfCharlie

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To be clear I 100% adamantly oppose the idea of nationalizing airlines. However, Without federal bailout money they’d be bankrupt. All of them were hemorrhaging money in the early stage of the pandemic. If the taxpayer is on the hook to bail them out every ten years why should they be private?
I agree 100% with this.
 

edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
205
To be clear I 100% adamantly oppose the idea of nationalizing airlines. However, Without federal bailout money they’d be bankrupt. All of them were hemorrhaging money in the early stage of the pandemic. If the taxpayer is on the hook to bail them out every ten years why should they be private?
I agreed with you up until you guys started talking about nationalizing the airlines. Airlines, as well as all businesses, need to be allowed to fail. That is what keeps capitalism balanced. The problem is that we don't really have capitalism in the U.S. anymore. The single biggest problem with the economy is that the Fed has kept interest rates near zero for over a decade. Corporations have been enabled to take on more and more debt than they would otherwise be able to in a free market because there is no price discovery. Companies go public and don't have to make any profits for years and years because their losses are subsidized by the stock market and investors who can borrow money at near 0% interest. It doesn't pay to be responsible and have a sound balance sheet when if you fail, the government is going to bail you out anyways. This only increases moral hazard as more companies are encouraged to be reckless and borrow more. Same with local governments. Low interest rates have allowed states and municipalities to live far beyond their means for too long while running up the balance sheet. Now many governments have no choice but to default or raise taxes higher on their already fleeing tax bases. NYC, Chicago, and Illinois have some of the most toxic balance sheets but refuse to cut spending. Instead they want the Federal government to bail them out so they don't have to live with the consequences of their policies. The problem is that if they get bailed out, then all the responsible local governments would have been dumb to balance their budget so it encourages everyone to be reckless knowing that there is always a bailout to save them. Federal debt is just as toxic but the only thing that separates the Fed from the State and local gov is a printing press.

It's a self perpetuating death spiral that is the U.S. economy and can only be "sustained" by ever increasing debt added to the system. Meanwhile, the wealth inequality gap gets wider until one day it all comes crashing down.

As far as nationalizing the airlines go, we're already headed down that path basically even if they're not outright saying it. If the airlines get bailed out but they have all these stipulations that make it so they can't ever make a profit (i.e. can't downsize, restructure, cut jobs) then they are essentially a zombie company that will need to continually need to be funded by the taxpayer in perpetuity. Everyone is so afraid to let the airlines declare bankruptcy but it is much needed. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they go out of business either, but rather is a way for them to restructure their debt and downsize to become profitable once again.
 

mnsalty

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I agreed with you up until you guys started talking about nationalizing the airlines. Airlines, as well as all businesses, need to be allowed to fail. That is what keeps capitalism balanced. The problem is that we don't really have capitalism in the U.S. anymore. The single biggest problem with the economy is that the Fed has kept interest rates near zero for over a decade. Corporations have been enabled to take on more and more debt than they would otherwise be able to in a free market because there is no price discovery. Companies go public and don't have to make any profits for years and years because their losses are subsidized by the stock market and investors who can borrow money at near 0% interest. It doesn't pay to be responsible and have a sound balance sheet when if you fail, the government is going to bail you out anyways. This only increases moral hazard as more companies are encouraged to be reckless and borrow more. Same with local governments. Low interest rates have allowed states and municipalities to live far beyond their means for too long while running up the balance sheet. Now many governments have no choice but to default or raise taxes higher on their already fleeing tax bases. NYC, Chicago, and Illinois have some of the most toxic balance sheets but refuse to cut spending. Instead they want the Federal government to bail them out so they don't have to live with the consequences of their policies. The problem is that if they get bailed out, then all the responsible local governments would have been dumb to balance their budget so it encourages everyone to be reckless knowing that there is always a bailout to save them. Federal debt is just as toxic but the only thing that separates the Fed from the State and local gov is a printing press.

It's a self perpetuating death spiral that is the U.S. economy and can only be "sustained" by ever increasing debt added to the system. Meanwhile, the wealth inequality gap gets wider until one day it all comes crashing down.

As far as nationalizing the airlines go, we're already headed down that path basically even if they're not outright saying it. If the airlines get bailed out but they have all these stipulations that make it so they can't ever make a profit (i.e. can't downsize, restructure, cut jobs) then they are essentially a zombie company that will need to continually need to be funded by the taxpayer in perpetuity. Everyone is so afraid to let the airlines declare bankruptcy but it is much needed. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they go out of business either, but rather is a way for them to restructure their debt and downsize to become profitable once again.

I've never agreed with someone more wholeheartedly on an internet forum before. THIS is 1000000% accurate. Love it.
 

mnsalty

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568
Yup, and they were getting greedy af too. That's not the pilots or FAs faults, but the way the airlines were operating they were more than due for a reality check. Temporarily funding them through a short-term lapse of income (march/april/may) is one thing - but continually rolling and throwing money at it every 3-4 months while we wait for their demand to recover, which is currently estimated to take 3-4 YEARS, yeah, not paying for that. I'll happily donate to a pilot or FA relief fund, but I'm not letting the airlines rebuild the monstrosity they had before and do very little for the employees or the flying public.
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
FAA
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I agreed with you up until you guys started talking about nationalizing the airlines. Airlines, as well as all businesses, need to be allowed to fail. That is what keeps capitalism balanced. The problem is that we don't really have capitalism in the U.S. anymore. The single biggest problem with the economy is that the Fed has kept interest rates near zero for over a decade. Corporations have been enabled to take on more and more debt than they would otherwise be able to in a free market because there is no price discovery. Companies go public and don't have to make any profits for years and years because their losses are subsidized by the stock market and investors who can borrow money at near 0% interest. It doesn't pay to be responsible and have a sound balance sheet when if you fail, the government is going to bail you out anyways. This only increases moral hazard as more companies are encouraged to be reckless and borrow more. Same with local governments. Low interest rates have allowed states and municipalities to live far beyond their means for too long while running up the balance sheet. Now many governments have no choice but to default or raise taxes higher on their already fleeing tax bases. NYC, Chicago, and Illinois have some of the most toxic balance sheets but refuse to cut spending. Instead they want the Federal government to bail them out so they don't have to live with the consequences of their policies. The problem is that if they get bailed out, then all the responsible local governments would have been dumb to balance their budget so it encourages everyone to be reckless knowing that there is always a bailout to save them. Federal debt is just as toxic but the only thing that separates the Fed from the State and local gov is a printing press.

It's a self perpetuating death spiral that is the U.S. economy and can only be "sustained" by ever increasing debt added to the system. Meanwhile, the wealth inequality gap gets wider until one day it all comes crashing down.

As far as nationalizing the airlines go, we're already headed down that path basically even if they're not outright saying it. If the airlines get bailed out but they have all these stipulations that make it so they can't ever make a profit (i.e. can't downsize, restructure, cut jobs) then they are essentially a zombie company that will need to continually need to be funded by the taxpayer in perpetuity. Everyone is so afraid to let the airlines declare bankruptcy but it is much needed. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they go out of business either, but rather is a way for them to restructure their debt and downsize to become profitable once again.
My only concern is at the moment no “up and coming” company exists to step in and fill the void. Natural competition should occur, I agree, but in the absence of it we have a void that could potentially have a cascading effect. Nationalising an airline in the interim until its assets can be auctioned off/sold to a new buyer to keep some semblance of inter-state commerce/transportation/cargo going would be a a solution?
 
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