Serious ARTCC Consolidations

[GulfCharlie]

Minute 38…


There are a lot of feelings I have about this, having done my best (with volumes of help from some contacts) to bring the N90 -> PHL to light and the manner in which it was “negotiated” and sold out, but here are some discussions being held about ARTCC’s in the future. 804 is dead and gone, the agency will justify this in front of congress by means of “safety.”

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

ATO COO Tim Arel: “No one knows what it will take to build a new Center. We do know that if you’re going to build a new facility we need to combine at least 2 together - or more - to optimize our efficiencies, because there are 20 across the CONUS because that is where technology limited us to at that time. So, to improve efficiencies and redundancies we would have to put it all together, or bring some together, and we don’t know how many that would be. But that is part of that study.”

Minute 38…


There are a lot of feelings I have about this, having done my best (with volumes of help from some contacts) to bring the N90 -> PHL to light and the manner in which it was “negotiated” and sold out, but here are some discussions being held about ARTCC’s in the future. 804 is dead and gone, the agency will justify this in front of congress by means of “safety.”

I don't know what center controllers could possibly complain about. They'll love it when everything gets consolidated into one super-center, the "updated" traffic count is deemed to be Level 10, and they're using their PCS money to house hunt in... Sioux Falls, SD! 😂

 

[ClearanceClarence]

This sounds scary and I have no doubt the agency would love to move towards consolidation of all facilities one day. But you also have to keep in mind how absolutely abysmal the FAA is at executing any type of change. All of our technology is consistently 30+ years behind where it should be. On the construction side, it took them 2 years just to re-pave the parking lot at my Z a few years back.

Even if the agency decided today that we are definitely consolidating into one or more “super centers” it would take 20-30 years for it to actually come to fruition. Even new hires getting TOLs today would likely never have to worry about it. We’ll be replaced with AI before the FAA would be able to implement a major system changing project like this. Never going to be a factor.

 

[GulfCharlie]

This sounds scary and I have no doubt the agency would love to move towards consolidation of all facilities one day. But you also have to keep in mind how absolutely abysmal the FAA is at executing any type of change. All of our technology is consistently 30+ years behind where it should be. On the construction side, it took them 2 years just to re-pave the parking lot at my Z a few years back.

Even if the agency decided today that we are definitely consolidating into one or more “super centers” it would take 20-30 years for it to actually come to fruition. Even new hires getting TOLs today would likely never have to worry about it. We’ll be replaced with AI before the FAA would be able to implement a major system changing project like this. Never going to be a factor.

Agreed, we need to beat the drum though in opposition.

 

[Raul Pinaldi]

With section 804 being a thing of the past I predict the Agency to begin aggressively pursuing facility consolidations. Especially once the "success" of the EWR to PHL is realized. There are too many up/downs that are old and falling apart and it will be "easier and cheaper" to build stand alone towers and consolidate the TRACONS. Think of AZO as the model.

 

[32andBelow]

a project to replace eram and centers would span multiple administrations and employees and would need Congress to agree about losing a lot of income from a lot of districts. Seems like it would take longer than we’d be working. But NATCA should demand immediate clarification.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Isn’t Tim Arel a massive failure in everything he does

 

[CoffeeIV]

Agreed, we need to beat the drum though in opposition.

But why? Why keep every facility open? There are many towers and tracons that should be gone yet still kicking around for no reason. Just places people get stuck at or have to waste time to transfer out of. Money in upkeep on buildings that could be going to our paychecks. More desirable locations for the majority of applicants.

Technology has advanced. Eventually you will be able to work traffic from anywhere in the country with minimal delay. San Juan and Guam could be closed down one day and those controllers could be better placed elsewhere. If the FAA was smart, they would draw up a game plan and every TOL in the future would have a concrete date that you're no longer guaranteed to stay there. Then if you take the job, it's not a surprise when you're moving and you have no say. If you don't like it, don't take the job.

 

[GulfCharlie]

But why? Why keep every facility open? There are many towers and tracons that should be gone yet still kicking around for no reason. Just places people get stuck at or have to waste time to transfer out of. Money in upkeep on buildings that could be going to our paychecks. More desirable locations for the majority of applicants.

Technology has advanced. Eventually you will be able to work traffic from anywhere in the country with minimal delay. San Juan and Guam could be closed down one day and those controllers could be better placed elsewhere. If the FAA was smart, they would draw up a game plan and every TOL in the future would have a concrete date that you're no longer guaranteed to stay there. Then if you take the job, it's not a surprise when you're moving and you have no say. If you don't like it, don't take the job.

Valid points and excellent questions. Did not want you to think I was ignoring you but give me a bit to put some thoughts to paper.

 

[KP-ATC]

But why? Why keep every facility open? There are many towers and tracons that should be gone yet still kicking around for no reason. Just places people get stuck at or have to waste time to transfer out of. Money in upkeep on buildings that could be going to our paychecks. More desirable locations for the majority of applicants.

Technology has advanced. Eventually you will be able to work traffic from anywhere in the country with minimal delay. San Juan and Guam could be closed down one day and those controllers could be better placed elsewhere. If the FAA was smart, they would draw up a game plan and every TOL in the future would have a concrete date that you're no longer guaranteed to stay there. Then if you take the job, it's not a surprise when you're moving and you have no say. If you don't like it, don't take the job.

Fixing staffing takes care of most of that without closing any facilities.

 

[Redacted]

I’m a huge proponent of consolidating centers. Just make sure (1) the new ones are in quality places to live and come with huge PCS money to accommodate people moving and (2) anyone who’s facility is consolidated gets a free pass to wherever in the country they want.

 

[32andBelow]

maybe you can do stuff like have one center in Texas or California. But like having a single target or point of failure seems like a really bad idea

 

[KP-ATC]

I’m a huge proponent of consolidating centers. Just make sure (1) the new ones are in quality places to live and come with huge PCS money to accommodate people moving and (2) anyone who’s facility is consolidated gets a free pass to wherever in the country they want.

All fun and games until we get another Chicago fire.
All your eggs in one basket is never a good idea.

 

[CoffeeIV]

Fixing staffing takes care of most of that without closing any facilities.

But how do you fix staffing in places that many don't want to go? Are Guam and San Juan mandatory for people or optional (serious question)?

Obviously a local hiring bid for those places would be ideal but the FAA has only done that for N90 I believe.

 

[Redacted]

All fun and games until we get another Chicago fire.
All your eggs in one basket is never a good idea.

That’s an agency problem. Not mine.

 

[KP-ATC]

But how do you fix staffing in places that many don't want to go? Are Guam and San Juan mandatory for people or optional (serious question)?

Obviously a local hiring bid for those places would be ideal but the FAA has only done that for N90 I believe.

If the NAS is fully staffed, you can offer TDYs or whatever. There are lots of ways to do it.

 

[32andBelow]

But how do you fix staffing in places that many don't want to go? Are Guam and San Juan mandatory for people or optional (serious question)?

Obviously a local hiring bid for those places would be ideal but the FAA has only done that for N90 I believe.

Hire people that live in Guam already, train them locally get rid of okc.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

With section 804 being a thing of the past I predict the Agency to begin aggressively pursuing facility consolidations. Especially once the "success" of the EWR to PHL is realized. There are too many up/downs that are old and falling apart and it will be "easier and cheaper" to build stand alone towers and consolidate the TRACONS. Think of AZO as the model.

I think this too but think it will be a good thing, I think "mass hiring" will fail completely, as the poor pay and placement will outpace more initial hires. Eventually staffing will get so bad, they will need to do major consolidations, maybe to low COLA areas people will want to live in. Like the AZO thing. I think that is the model. Look at all the low level up/downs in the Great Lakes area of central PA, NY and OH. Consolidate them all into Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, make those facilities a 9 or 10, keep them staffed up as not premier but tolerable places to live for that pay. The towers left behind? Some homesteaders will stay, maybe one day they go contract, but that is so far away anyone already at one would probably be able to finish their career there to minimum retirement age, most people who would want to stay would be close to that anyway.

 

[Sassyquatch]

But how do you fix staffing in places that many don't want to go? Are Guam and San Juan mandatory for people or optional (serious question)?

Obviously a local hiring bid for those places would be ideal but the FAA has only done that for N90 I believe.

Local hiring 100% is the answer. A guy I work with who left San Juan center said that they did a local bid there years ago and all of those original controllers are still there. The FAA just doesn't have a brain to realize that's the answer for a lot of these hard to staff facilities that no one wants to be at.

 

[Phillytroll69]

I would leave Cali, NY, DC or MIA center TODAY to work traffic with per diem for 2 years in whatever town they make the super center