Contract Tower spinning IFR

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
DoD
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1,534
Long story short, IFR traffic (E170) in this case, is spun by the contract tower and turned away from the airport after cleared for visual approach, in order to give priority to VFR aircraft in the pattern. Tower’s argument is first come first serve, even though we know once cleared for a visual approach they cannot turn away from the airport. Tower should slow the inbound IFR/S-turns but likes spinning them as opposed to sending/spinning the VFR pattern traffic. Any suggestions in the .65 besides visual approaches, because this is becoming a massive issue and the tower is very argumentative and uses “first come first serve” as their excuse.
 

DADDYSbabyBIRD

Active Member
Messages
56
Long story short, IFR traffic (E170) in this case, is spun by the contract tower and turned away from the airport after cleared for visual approach, in order to give priority to VFR aircraft in the pattern. Tower’s argument is first come first serve, even though we know once cleared for a visual approach they cannot turn away from the airport. Tower should slow the inbound IFR/S-turns but likes spinning them as opposed to sending/spinning the VFR pattern traffic. Any suggestions in the .65 besides visual approaches, because this is becoming a massive issue and the tower is very argumentative and uses “first come first serve” as their excuse.
1. ATSAP every occurrence if it leads to any potential conflicts with terrain or other ac.

Since the .65 really gives no clear guidance on the issue I would only be able to fall back on that the aircraft should really be saying "unable" if they can't keep the airport in sight since it's in the aim as part of a visual approach.

Sounds like a terrible tower to work with though, if they go to spinning a straight in to fit a downwind in... just kind of dumb.
 

CaptainObvious

Legendary Member
Messages
1,679
1. ATSAP every occurrence if it leads to any potential conflicts with terrain or other ac.

Since the .65 really gives no clear guidance on the issue I would only be able to fall back on that the aircraft should really be saying "unable" if they can't keep the airport in sight since it's in the aim as part of a visual approach.

Sounds like a terrible tower to work with though, if they go to spinning a straight in to fit a downwind in... just kind of dumb.
Yeah one of the first things I learned over several CTOs, is straight in always beats the downwind. Why is the tower not simply extending the downwind to follow. IFR itinerant should absolutely have priority over the bug smasher doing 15 touch and goes
 

DADDYSbabyBIRD

Active Member
Messages
56
Now the OP didn't say they were straight in... if you as the approach control are just slamming ifr jets in willy nilly into a full pattern from a weird angle... the odds that a 360 happens goes way up, and you can take some of the blame on why they are doing it. Like I wouldn't expect tower to pull off a 4 mile final vfr guy so you can smash a jet right up his ass going 230... the approach needs to play ball too... see what the tower has going on and either slow them down for them or coordinate what the tower wants. Seems like maybe some better communication may need to be happening.
.
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
DoD
Messages
1,534
Now the OP didn't say they were straight in... if you as the approach control are just slamming ifr jets in willy nilly into a full pattern from a weird angle... the odds that a 360 happens goes way up, and you can take some of the blame on why they are doing it. Like I wouldn't expect tower to pull off a 4 mile final vfr guy so you can smash a jet right up his ass going 230... the approach needs to play ball too... see what the tower has going on and either slow them down for them or coordinate what the tower wants. Seems like maybe some better communication may need to be happening.
.
We usually set the tower up for a nice 10 mile straight in because they are incompetent, apologise a bit brain dead but I setup my neighbour for success. What infuriates me is when I have a GPS approach and she spins him to make room for a VFR. Trying to have a nice sit down with the adjacent facility and I suspect it won’t go well.
 

DADDYSbabyBIRD

Active Member
Messages
56
We usually set the tower up for a nice 10 mile straight in because they are incompetent, apologise a bit brain dead but I setup my neighbour for success. What infuriates me is when I have a GPS approach and she spins him to make room for a VFR. Trying to have a nice sit down with the adjacent facility and I suspect it won’t go well.
If the situation is as above stated then yes 100% the tower is not playing ball. I would constantly ATSAP the situation. Discuss it with your LSC but only after you put in a few reports. Also try to coordinate with the tower, ask them how they want a particular ifr... just see what they say. They may be willing to help you out and get on board if they first see you trying to openly help them. Then if all this fails... and it might, realize they are making way less than you and are probably terrible to work with and hate life. Sometime people are just plain difficult.
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
DoD
Messages
1,534
If the situation is as above stated then yes 100% the tower is not playing ball. I would constantly ATSAP the situation. Discuss it with your LSC but only after you put in a few reports. Also try to coordinate with the tower, ask them how they want a particular ifr... just see what they say. They may be willing to help you out and get on board if they first see you trying to openly help them. Then if all this fails... and it might, realize they are making way less than you and are probably terrible to work with and hate life. Sometime people are just plain difficult.
😂 FAA to DOD transfer brother, I tried to form NATCA here but two controllers didn’t like the idea with one specifically not wanting to lose the desk job while still clocking that 2152 retirement time….
 

liter a cola

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FAA
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474
Facility
Command Center
😂 FAA to DOD transfer brother, I tried to form NATCA here but two controllers didn’t like the idea with one specifically not wanting to lose the desk job while still clocking that 2152 retirement time….
I'm guessing it's EYW you are talking about. You could always lean towards the passive aggressive side and hold on to your arrivals until the marker and then switch them... Or whatever your TCP is with the tower.

We had a tower that would slam the brakes on everyone, slowing them to approach speed 10-15 mile final. The fix was just stop switching them so far out.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
7,294
We usually set the tower up for a nice 10 mile straight in because they are incompetent, apologise a bit brain dead but I setup my neighbour for success. What infuriates me is when I have a GPS approach and she spins him to make room for a VFR. Trying to have a nice sit down with the adjacent facility and I suspect it won’t go well.
Guess it depends what your LOA says. Ours say the class D tower can records them for a visual and then they’ll sometimes circle them to the active runway. But if we have several coming in together we’ll coordinate so they don’t circle the front guy
 

MJ

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
2,879
Unless you have some weird LOA, the tower can’t do anything to change IFR sep/sequence. That’s a pretty flagrant violation. Management should be handling that at their level.
 
Messages
27
Long story short, IFR traffic (E170) in this case, is spun by the contract tower and turned away from the airport after cleared for visual approach, in order to give priority to VFR aircraft in the pattern. Tower’s argument is first come first serve, even though we know once cleared for a visual approach they cannot turn away from the airport. Tower should slow the inbound IFR/S-turns but likes spinning them as opposed to sending/spinning the VFR pattern traffic. Any suggestions in the .65 besides visual approaches, because this is becoming a massive issue and the tower is very argumentative and uses “first come first serve” as their excuse.
Do they not have a radar display or any coordination for an ETA? Sounds like terrible planning by the tower controller. First come first serve doesn’t always work with different aircraft performance😒
 

redsphanatic

Trusted Contributor
Messages
432
It’s one thing if approach hands off a 90 knot VFR guy in front of a 210 knot IFR jet without having a plan or good sequencing, but if it is the tower‘s VFR traffic causing the problems, they need to work with sequencing their stuff better. VFR pattern sequencing is Academy 101.
 

hoody

Member
Messages
40
I'm guessing it's EYW you are talking about. You could always lean towards the passive aggressive side and hold on to your arrivals until the marker and then switch them... Or whatever your TCP is with the tower.

We had a tower that would slam the brakes on everyone, slowing them to approach speed 10-15 mile final. The fix was just stop switching them so far out.
Why did they do that? Was is operational advantageous?
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
DoD
Messages
1,534
Unless you have some weird LOA, the tower can’t do anything to change IFR sep/sequence. That’s a pretty flagrant violation. Management should be handling that at their level.
Their manger is the one who has done it repeatedly 😂😂😂
 

Mc15

Member
Messages
95
Now the OP didn't say they were straight in... if you as the approach control are just slamming ifr jets in willy nilly into a full pattern from a weird angle... the odds that a 360 happens goes way up, and you can take some of the blame on why they are doing it. Like I wouldn't expect tower to pull off a 4 mile final vfr guy so you can smash a jet right up his ass going 230... the approach needs to play ball too... see what the tower has going on and either slow them down for them or coordinate what the tower wants. Seems like maybe some better communication may need to be happening.
.
Gonna go ahead and bet big money on approach just smashing in guys and complaining about it. I work at an up down and we do it to ourselves. Sometimes it’s safer to just send the jet around
 

GR

Member
Messages
14
Isn’t EYW tower still in a trailer at the far end of the runway? I know their main tower got destroyed in like 2018.
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
DoD
Messages
1,534
Gonna go ahead and bet big money on approach just smashing in guys and complaining about it. I work at an up down and we do it to ourselves. Sometimes it’s safer to just send the jet around
That’s a big negative Ghost Rider… Regardless you can’t just spin IFR traffic, especially when one is established and cleared for the GPS.
 
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