Denying leave for the NTI

Caerbannog

Member
Messages
64
I need to read through the Q&A and talk to the local but I'm curious if anyone is getting annual leave denied based off of not meeting training hours in a spot leave status. Scenario is CPC-IT and the leave being denied is when you're on the training side of the schedule. Not that it should matter if it's developmental in training or cpc honestly. We're both being used for staffing occasionally. This shouldn't be allowed right? Or is it based off local agreements?

It feels similar to denying leave based on staffing just because management is "worried" someone might bang which they obviously can't do.

It's pretty frustrating coming from a few years ago at a previous facility where leave was basically guaranteed as a trainee and at a new facility it's denied most of the time. Then when you get certified your leave is just going to be denied because guess what... You're staffing now. I'm not trying to skate away and take leave all the damn time and understand training needs to be done but hell if it doesn't help knowing the grass isn't greener on the other side when you know leave isn't going to be approved either way.
 

123456

Member
Messages
24
I need to read through the Q&A and talk to the local but I'm curious if anyone is getting annual leave denied based off of not meeting training hours in a spot leave status. Scenario is CPC-IT and the leave being denied is when you're on the training side of the schedule. Not that it should matter if it's developmental in training or cpc honestly. We're both being used for staffing occasionally. This shouldn't be allowed right? Or is it based off local agreements?

It feels similar to denying leave based on staffing just because management is "worried" someone might bang which they obviously can't do.

It's pretty frustrating coming from a few years ago at a previous facility where leave was basically guaranteed as a trainee and at a new facility it's denied most of the time. Then when you get certified your leave is just going to be denied because guess what... You're staffing now. I'm not trying to skate away and take leave all the damn time and understand training needs to be done but hell if it doesn't help knowing the grass isn't greener on the other side when you know leave isn't going to be approved either way.
NTI is the one of the only measurable items for ATMs to report up, along with PROCs. Their raises are based off these outcomes so you will meet the hours. It sucks to get your leave denied, but it also sucks to not get raises because a trainee gets 10 hours and then decides to take a 3 day. I know it doesn't matter to you whether I get a raise, and I don't love the NTI target hours thing either, but you will get your hours so I get paid.

Another reason is if you approve leave for all devs all the time they enjoy training and become career trainees. Training should suck enough to want to certify.
 

After_Victor

Trusted Contributor
Messages
277
NTI is the one of the only measurable items for ATMs to report up, along with PROCs. Their raises are based off these outcomes so you will meet the hours. It sucks to get your leave denied, but it also sucks to not get raises because a trainee gets 10 hours and then decides to take a 3 day. I know it doesn't matter to you whether I get a raise, and I don't love the NTI target hours thing either, but you will get your hours so I get paid.

Another reason is if you approve leave for all devs all the time they enjoy training and become career trainees. Training should suck enough to want to certify.
This is gross
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
474
Facility
Command Center
I need to read through the Q&A and talk to the local but I'm curious if anyone is getting annual leave denied based off of not meeting training hours in a spot leave status. Scenario is CPC-IT and the leave being denied is when you're on the training side of the schedule. Not that it should matter if it's developmental in training or cpc honestly. We're both being used for staffing occasionally. This shouldn't be allowed right? Or is it based off local agreements?

It feels similar to denying leave based on staffing just because management is "worried" someone might bang which they obviously can't do.

It's pretty frustrating coming from a few years ago at a previous facility where leave was basically guaranteed as a trainee and at a new facility it's denied most of the time. Then when you get certified your leave is just going to be denied because guess what... You're staffing now. I'm not trying to skate away and take leave all the damn time and understand training needs to be done but hell if it doesn't help knowing the grass isn't greener on the other side when you know leave isn't going to be approved either way.
As per the CBA approval / denial is based on staffing and workload. There is always a unofficial number to run a shift (when we get down to X bodies the supe starts running the OT list). As long as you are above that number (assuming you are used for staffing) and nothing crazy is going on that would require extra bodies on the shift like an airshow or the superbowl it shall be approved.

If your area rep/facrep isn't fighting this issue for you they are a dirtbag, or possibly they think you are a traffic dodger because you are and most likely will wash.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20220725-233242.png
    Screenshot_20220725-233242.png
    71.2 KB · Views: 16

123456

Member
Messages
24
As per the CBA approval / denial is based on staffing and workload. There is always a unofficial number to run a shift (when we get down to X bodies the supe starts running the OT list). As long as you are above that number (assuming you are used for staffing) and nothing crazy is going on that would require extra bodies on the shift like an airshow or the superbowl it shall be approved.

If your area rep/facrep isn't fighting this issue for you they are a dirtbag, or possibly they think you are a traffic dodger because you are and most likely will wash.
The rep isn’t fighting this because he's tired of transfers sandbagging and getting leave all willy nilly while he works 6 days.
 
Messages
28
If the local isn't working with you then I don't know how far you'll get. All the solutions involve catching FLMs being dumb, but that's not a position you want to put yourself in as a trainee.
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
474
Facility
Command Center
The rep isn’t fighting this because he's tired of transfers sandbagging and getting leave all willy nilly while he works 6 days.
A reps job is to protect the box, if a rep isn't holding mgmt accountable for blatant disregard of the CBA they shouldn't be the rep.
 

123456

Member
Messages
24
A reps job is to protect the box, if a rep isn't holding mgmt accountable for blatant disregard of the CBA they shouldn't be the rep.
What disregard for the CBA? A devs job function is to train, the union signed on to the NTI, if they haven't met their weekly goals, then workload does not permit spot leave. I’m as pro controller sup as you’ll find, and i never deny leave, but in this case i would advise to deny the trainees leave.
 
Messages
28
What disregard for the CBA? A devs job function is to train, the union signed on to the NTI, if they haven't met their weekly goals, then workload does not permit spot leave. I’m as pro controller sup as you’ll find, and i never deny leave, but in this case i would advise to deny the trainees leave.

Do you call in overtime to meet the NTI?
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
474
Facility
Command Center
What disregard for the CBA? A devs job function is to train, the union signed on to the NTI, if they haven't met their weekly goals, then workload does not permit spot leave. I’m as pro controller sup as you’ll find, and i never deny leave, but in this case i would advise to deny the trainees leave.
A devs job function is to train huh so I'm assuming that you have never used a dev for staffing? The union did sign onto the NTI, post up a full copy and show me where it says that the NTI will supercede the CBA when approving / denying spot leave requests. As stated above is OT called in to meet the NTI? It would be very mgmt like to have it both ways.

Most supes think they are pro controller but few are. I swear you guys and gals are all the same. I bet you believe that "no pattern is a pattern" bullshit they teach in reference to sick leave.

Attached is a update from the natca page in reference to the NTI that states that "expectations are not mandates".

Additionally I said screw it and emailed the natca NTI and asked for clarification. Once I get a response I'll be sure to post it up here. If I'm wrong I'll admit it.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20220726-014541~2.png
    Screenshot_20220726-014541~2.png
    165.5 KB · Views: 42
  • Screenshot_20220726-014423.png
    Screenshot_20220726-014423.png
    45.5 KB · Views: 41
Last edited:

CoffeeIV

Active Member
Messages
65
This is how our facility handles it:

Scenario 1: Shift requires 7 people. You have 7 CPCs and a Trainee. Trainee requests leave and it gets approved because they aren't staffing. The 7 CPCs request leave and it gets denied. This creates some bad blood when trainees can get spot leave anytime yet CPCs never can.

Scenario 2: Shift requires 7 people. You have 8 CPCs and a trainee. 1 CPC requests leave, followed by the trainee. CPC gets it but trainee gets denied. This is what happened to me and I think it's bullshit if a trainee requested it 10 mins later than the CPC. Had the trainee requested leave first, both personnel would have gotten leave.

My facility in the past had issues I guess of trainees constantly getting spot leave and CPCs never could so there is some agreement between local NATCA and management on how to more fairly run the shifts. Nothing is perfect, but had a little more thought been used then scenario 2 shouldn't have happened imo. My last facility didn't really give a shit about training numbers that much. We'd do 2.5-3 hours a day and if you banged the last day or took leave then that's an excuse to use. Too bad ATM's basically hate all excuses no matter what.

The training initiative was good in theory but it's not a one size fits all and it shouldn't be creating even more staffing issues.
 

Caerbannog

Member
Messages
64
A devs job function is to train huh so I'm assuming that you have never used a dev for staffing? The union did sign onto the NTI, post up a full copy and show me where it says that the NTI will supercede the CBA when approving / denying spot leave requests. As stated above is OT called in to meet the NTI? It would be very mgmt like to have it both ways.

Most supes think they are pro controller but few are. I swear you guys and gals are all the same. I bet you believe that "no pattern is a pattern" bullshit they teach in reference to sick leave.

Attached is a update from the natca page in reference to the NTI that states that "expectations are not mandates".

Additionally I said screw it and emailed the natca NTI and asked for clarification. Once I get a response I'll be sure to post it up here. If I'm wrong I'll admit it.
And let me clarify that these denials can happen on a Saturday at the end of the week and be noted that they'll re visit it when they get closer to the end of the week. So if one is to request annual at the beginning of the week is that to be denied because now we're worried you won't get the hours by the end of the week? So basically the only days you're allowed to get off are weekdays and not weekends? I'm not saying either days are being approved because the Wednesdays or Thursdays get denied on the training side as well so there really isn't any sense to saying "we'll look at how many hours the trainee has by COB Friday"
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
474
Facility
Command Center
And let me clarify that these denials can happen on a Saturday at the end of the week and be noted that they'll re visit it when they get closer to the end of the week. So if one is to request annual at the beginning of the week is that to be denied because now we're worried you won't get the hours by the end of the week? So basically the only days you're allowed to get off are weekdays and not weekends? I'm not saying either days are being approved because the Wednesdays or Thursdays get denied on the training side as well so there really isn't any sense to saying "we'll look at how many hours the trainee has by COB Friday"
I'll say it again, your request should not be denied if the only reasoning is that you won't meet your required training hours. I talked to a supe in my building no less than an hour ago and he agreed.
 

123456

Member
Messages
24
Do you call in overtime to meet the NTI?
The schedule is built to accomplish NTI “requirement/goals”, meaning there are enough OJTIs and devs to meet the “requirement”( I say requirement because as an OS if I do not meet the goals I am counseled and PROCd. This is most likely a district thing, but thats all i know, and yes I have tried to use every excuse you guys are bringing up to justify not meeting goals and it always comes back to me failing)

The answer to your question is no i do not call in OT to meet NTI. Sick outs are the only truly acceptable impediment.

I have fought the NTI harder than anyone else since its inception, I’m just not stupid enough to ruin my career to prove a point over training. I’m busy ruining my career other ways.

I'll say it again, your request should not be denied if the only reasoning is that you won't meet your required training hours. I talked to a supe in my building no less than an hour ago and he agreed.
Thats cool that he said that, but let him have to explain to the GM why he did and he will change his decision. Most likely you work a facility that trains 20+ devs a week and one missed goal can be averaged out and not highlighted in the telcon.

If you break it down to a single developmental and put it under a microscope, denying leave is acceptable to meet the goals. That doesn’t mean I wont approve leave, i will just assess the situation and make the best choice.
 

Spaceforce

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
911
Facility
Command Center
And let me clarify that these denials can happen on a Saturday at the end of the week and be noted that they'll re visit it when they get closer to the end of the week. So if one is to request annual at the beginning of the week is that to be denied because now we're worried you won't get the hours by the end of the week? So basically the only days you're allowed to get off are weekdays and not weekends? I'm not saying either days are being approved because the Wednesdays or Thursdays get denied on the training side as well so there really isn't any sense to saying "we'll look at how many hours the trainee has by COB Friday"
Per the annual leave article, leave request can’t be conditional. Also if it’s approvable, it shall be approved. I’d start grieving it. NTI isn’t your problem
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
474
Facility
Command Center
Thats cool that he said that, but let him have to explain to the GM why he did and he will change his decision. Most likely you work a facility that trains 20+ devs a week and one missed goal can be averaged out and not highlighted in the telcon.

If you break it down to a single developmental and put it under a microscope, denying leave is acceptable to meet the goals. That doesn’t mean I wont approve leave, i will just assess the situation and make the best choice.
Wrong, we have 41 and 5 are devs, we just follow the contract on some occasions. Remember at the end of the day most controllers only care about LV and Pay, don't mess with that and we'll be mostly content.
 
Top Bottom