Multiple IFR Arrivals into Satellite Airports

edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
69
Just recently started classroom for radar at my facility and the question came up for whether you can have an aircraft cleared for an approach at a satellite airport if a preceding arrival has not cancelled IFR yet. My classroom instructor says it's not legal and you absolutely cannot clear the second aircraft before the first one cancels. His reasoning was if the second one goes NORDO or something and proceeds to conduct the approach, you don't have positive sep. However at RTF we were taught that you can clear the second aircraft, you just can't switch them to advisory before you get a cancellation. If you didn't get a cancellation by the time #2 got to about 1 mile from FAF, you had to break him out. Same procedure was in place if you released a guy off a satellite and they didn't get airborne and ID'd before the arrival was close to the FAF.

Can someone direct me to the right rules in the .65 and what do you guys who actually work a lot of traffic do about this?
 

Spoony90

Trusted Contributor
Messages
78
Clear the first one, switch him to advisories but I remind him he needs to cancel and I tell him why. The second one, it depends. If he’s on the visual, resume own nav, maintain xxx, remain my freq
 

170tovocus

Trusted Contributor
Messages
36
I definitely never clear a following until the leader cancels, and we deal with this a lot where I work (TRACON). At night if there's been weather delays, it's not uncommon for me to be talking to 3 or 4 IFRs heading to the same satellite field just after their tower closes for the night. I'll have them join the loc and descend down to the FAF crossing altitude, but if no cancellation by the time they reach it then I'll spin them or vector around for another try. I also make sure the preceding arrival knows others are waiting on him and it usually works out - I very rarely have to pull one off the localizer.
 

Spoony90

Trusted Contributor
Messages
78
It’s importsnt to let everyone know what’s going on. Shit, I’ve had the second or third one cancel me and just go VFR lol
 

slater

Member
Messages
44
Both can be cleared. Technically, but you have to have a grasp on what's going on and good timing.

The first one must cancel IFR prior to the 2nd guy reaching the final aproach fix and is on your frequency.

If the first guy doesn't cancel you'll have to cancel the 2nd guys aproach and put him in holding or revector for approach. (You'll have to either wait 30 mins from time you switched the first guy to advisory and advise the next inbound or validate with another AC or law enforcement that the first aircraft is safe on deck).

Its common practice to not clear the 2nd guy and just have the 2nd guy established on the aproach or holding on a fix within the aproach so that when the first guy finally cancels IFR you can simply clear for approach and change to advisory etc.
 
Last edited:

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
372
Just recently started classroom for radar at my facility and the question came up for whether you can have an aircraft cleared for an approach at a satellite airport if a preceding arrival has not cancelled IFR yet. My classroom instructor says it's not legal and you absolutely cannot clear the second aircraft before the first one cancels. His reasoning was if the second one goes NORDO or something and proceeds to conduct the approach, you don't have positive sep. However at RTF we were taught that you can clear the second aircraft, you just can't switch them to advisory before you get a cancellation. If you didn't get a cancellation by the time #2 got to about 1 mile from FAF, you had to break him out. Same procedure was in place if you released a guy off a satellite and they didn't get airborne and ID'd before the arrival was close to the FAF.

Can someone direct me to the right rules in the .65 and what do you guys who actually work a lot of traffic do about this?
It's legal. It's just not a best practice, especially for satellites without a remote frequency. You would only find it in the .65 if it was prohibited.

The time it saves not having to give the extra intercept transmission is cancelled out by having to cancel someone's clearance and the hassle from the guys that think a clearance means they can switch to advisories or "just figured you were busy and forgot to switch me so I changed on my own."
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
765
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Same procedure was in place if you released a guy off a satellite and they didn't get airborne and ID'd before the arrival was close to the FAF.
They apparently had a debate and marked me for a deal because I did this at the Academy in RTF. The guy cleared approach hadn’t even started his procedure turn yet and I released a guy with a 180 heading (away from the guy doing procedure turn) and they called it a deal.
 

Robertb

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
477
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
It is absolutely legal and we do it here all the time, but you have to know where your cutoff point is in the event the first aircraft doesn’t cancel IFR.
 

Belowme

Member
Messages
29
I would withhold the clearance though. An airport with out a control tower is one in one out. A guy inbound that is cleared with one already cleared may change over to advisory or go nordo then what do you do? You can pimp the first guy by telling him about ifr ac in trail of him and 9 out of 10 times he will cancel.
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
372
I would withhold the clearance though. An airport with out a control tower is one in one out. A guy inbound that is cleared with one already cleared may change over to advisory or go nordo then what do you do? You can pimp the first guy by telling him about ifr ac in trail of him and 9 out of 10 times he will cancel.
I'm not advocating for the practice but that's a pilot deviation
 

Belowme

Member
Messages
29
You would get part of it too. .65 refers to it at airports without operational control towers. You know what works like a charm. Clear the second guy to the airport and hold at a alt to deconflict with the first inbound or outbounds and I bet you almost 10 out of 10 times he will cancel. I can't count how many guys I cleared into a airport that changed to advisory without me telling him too. Do whatever your career can handle...just be safe.
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
372
You would get part of it too. .65 refers to it at airports without operational control towers. You know what works like a charm. Clear the second guy to the airport and hold at a alt to deconflict with the first inbound or outbounds and I bet you almost 10 out of 10 times he will cancel. I can't count how many guys I cleared into a airport that changed to advisory without me telling him too. Do whatever your career can handle...just be safe.
Pretty sure it doesn't, I would love to see a reference. And yeah, I know they do, that's why I said that in my post earlier.
 

HoneyBadgr

Member
FAA
Messages
80
Facility
POC Brackett Tower
Doesn't IFR cancel as soon as you switch them to an advisory frequency? Had a debate about this a few weeks ago.
 

Belowme

Member
Messages
29
Doesn't IFR cancel as soon as you switch them to an advisory frequency? Had a debate about this a few weeks ago.
Your kidding right?

Pretty sure it doesn't, I would love to see a reference. And yeah, I know they do, that's why I said that in my post earlier.
I hope you don't do this at your airport. Say you have a c150 cleared and a little behind him a learjet also cleared into a uncontrolled airport. C150 never cancels drops below radar coverage starts circling on ctaf at 2 thousand can't see the runway lj drops below radar coverage still he is ifr tbones the c150. You don't think you will get a deal? You most likely will go to jail for negligence. They will ask you what was your sep standards? How did you protect the missed approach segment. Please tell me you don't do this!
 

MJ

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
2,405
Firstly, the question whether it's legal or not has been answered. It is.
Secondly, arguments like this...
Say you have a c150 cleared and a little behind him a learjet also cleared into a uncontrolled airport. C150 never cancels drops below radar coverage starts circling on ctaf at 2 thousand can't see the runway lj drops below radar coverage still he is ifr tbones the c150. You don't think you will get a deal? You most likely will go to jail for negligence. They will ask you what was your sep standards? How did you protect the missed approach segment. Please tell me you don't do this!
... are a personal pet peeve because it is used sooo often in this job. This type of "arguement" fits into at least two categories of fallacious logic: the texas sharpshooter and composition/division.
24fallacies.png
Creating a specific situation to support your position is not valid. I can invent a scenario that supports the opposite just as easily. The questions "is it allowed" and "is it a good idea" aren't the same, just as one answer to one situation isn't universally applicable. The only argument to make is "No, its not allowed because XXX says two aircraft cannot be cleared for an approach at an uncontrolled airport at the same time", which doesn't exist.
 

Belowme

Member
Messages
29
This scenario happens pretty often. I'm curious why isn't it a good idea? You never had a guy execute a missed approach? How do you protect the missed approach segment when you have the second guy cleared and freq changed? At what point are you not responsible for vertical separation and lateral separation? Maybe the guy landed and the field is socked in with horrible visability and he crashes. If you applied the rules in .65 you would be doing your job. The crashed guy never cancels you hold the second guy out. You call the fbo ask about him they know nothing. After 30 minutes you consider him a over do ac. You call center they get the sar going. Clearing a bunch of people to a uncontrolled airport with out getting cancellations is not doing your job. 4-8-1 F. Except when applying radar procedures,timed approaches, visual approach, clear an aircraft for an approach to an airport when the proceeding aircraft has landed or canceled ifr flight plan.
 
Last edited:
Top