Seriously supes/OS's/FLM's whatever your calling yourselves now...

[liter a cola]

Alright this isn't a flatout attack against mgmt, I'd like to think this would be more of an olive branch / peace offering (I doubt many mgmt types are on .65)...

Has there ever been a time in the faa where supes were respected? In my 10 years I've had two that were worth a damn. One is dead, heart attack at 35 and the other has his issues but could work circles around everyone. He was enroute then worked at my tracon as a cpc got bored ERR'd to the tower, cpc'd then got bored again and came back downstairs as a supe to only regret it years later... and when he tried to quit upper mgmt flipped and basically promised to make his life hell.

I know what's said... Supes are traffic dodgers and weak sticks.

I'm just saying if I had more supes that could work circles around me actually do everything they ask others to do maybe they'd get more respect. Talk about "do as I say not as I do"

You're supposedly a leader, and a leader should never ask a subordinate to do something you couldn't do yourself.

This is supposed to be a "constructive convo" thread. Lol

 

[Phillyman2633]

(I doubt many mgmt types know the .65)...

Fixed

 

[liter a cola]

Fixed

Seriously though? How many shit surgeons that have stacks of malpractice lawsuits against them become "shift managers" or go on to be heads of departments? How many shit lawyers that lose case after case go on to own their own firm?

Why are we the only ones that promote this behavior? "Don't wanna work? Can't do the job? Why not become a manager!?"

And people wonder why we are so salty.

 

[ATC_VOL]

I’ve always thought that part of the issue is that in most jobs people are actually promoted into management/ supervisor positions. For us any ole CPC can volunteer for it regardless of skill, knowledge, experience level, or even having a history of doing the job they’ll be supervising (VFR tower controller with no radar experience becoming a supe at a center, or vice versa). Also how their seniority is set up (at least here) it encourages people to apply very early on in their careers, and discourages those who are more established and have a better handle on how things work.

 

[Maintainvfr]

There's also almost no incentive. I legitimately believe it's the worst job in the FAA. You get shit on by the controllers, and you get shit on by the people above you. Realistically you can't do anything about either. Nobody has their back on the rare occasion they're right about something. Their measly raise is cancelled out losing CIC, OJTI, and at a lot of facilities OT too. It's really not even a promotion, you go from actually doing something to managing a list of breaks and not much else day to day.

In my mind there's really four reasons someone would bid an FLM position.
1. To move somewhere
2. Stepping stone into a position with a better schedule
3. They can't/are afraid to work traffic
4. They're a power hungry knob gobbler

None of these make you qualified to be a leader

 

[DoctorSalami]

They're a power hungry knob gobbler

And what’s wrong with gobbling knobs!!??

 

[DankVectorz]

and you get shit on by the people above you.

The pressure from the top can be bad. We had one sup take a call from HQ DC telling him to open CRDA even though we didn’t have the staffing. He flipped a shit on them about telling him how to run his area and retired on the spot. Now we’re down to 2 sups for the entire area. They’re so beaten down by the system that one actively fights it and the other just doesn’t give a shit anymore about anything. Works out great for us line controllers though.

 

[liter a cola]

The pressure from the top can be bad. We had one sup take a call from HQ DC telling him to open CRDA even though we didn’t have the staffing. He flipped a shit on them about telling him how to run his area and retired on the spot. Now we’re down to 2 sups for the entire area. They’re so beaten down by the system that one actively fights it and the other just doesn’t give a shit anymore about anything. Works out great for us line controllers though.

It's nice when they just "let go of the wheel" and give up. Let's be honest, we've all had those days where no supes come in... I swear I've never seen a facility run so smoothly in my life.

 

[PushingTin]

In theory the sups should be the BEST controllers, but as a matter of fact (errr opinion based on training and experience and 1st hand accounts) they are almost always the worst. My basic theory is that those in charge of hiring sups, see some of themselves in the weak traffic dodgers they hire. Stir, rinse, repeat. Its sort of like how the fashion industry props up anorexic androgynous ppl, when almost no one would ever say they were the "most beautiful." So this incestuous situation where the weaklings w poor ATC aptitudes, zero people skills, no formal training or experience in principles of mgmt/Human Resource Mgmt, etc., get artificially promoted. Reverse Darwinism!

I had a debate one day with coworker where i was raging about how incompetent and embarrassing they are. I was saying they should be about GS-9's, as they only really assign ELMs, CBIS, Read & initials, and answer phones. I said its laughable that at almost all of the large facilities, almost *every FLM (lets say w 10+ years seniority) is congressionally capped out; yet almost wholly incapable of doing the job (at ARTCCs this is even more true). He immediately said.. what other job would the person "in charge" get paid LESS!? The immediate example I thought of were sports teams, where the athletes have the skills and make much more than the coaches. Controllers should in many cases make more than FLMs.

 

[DankVectorz]

At least at my facility sups are required to get certified in the whole area before they can start working as a sup. Don’t they only need 1 position at a lot of places?

 

[FoggyWindow]

My take on sup's is that some of them are certainly becoming sup's to dodge traffic, but a lot of them are just chasing paper. Its the quickest way to get capped out imo. FLM has to be the worst job though because you gotta deal with controllers bitching about the schedule and then you gotta deal with the OM and other mgmt bitching at you about controllers or why sectors aren't open or why so and so isn't training when staffing is short. Seems to be a middle man job without any real authority. My pet peeve is sup's not knowing their airspace or our LOA's. If you're the sup, you should know that shit. Best sup I ever had was at one time the best controller in my specialty, possibly the building.

At least at my facility sups are required to get certified in the whole area before they can start working as a sup. Don’t they only need 1 position at a lot of places?

I thought tracon sup's had to get fully certified at any tracon they were at? No wonder you guys are short of sups.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

I thought tracon sup's had to get fully certified at any tracon they were at? No wonder you guys are short of sups.

In my experience, two of the three tracons I have worked at the supervisors are not fully room certified. Although one was a split tracon but the supervisors still weren't even fully certified on one side of the split. They did half of each side.

 

[liter a cola]

I thought tracon sup's had to get fully certified at any tracon they were at? No wonder you guys are short of sups.

Nope... The core 30 tracon I was at supes had to get 2 scopes out of 7, an arrival and departure scope and that was it. Then they come in at 4 or 5 am to get currency. They'd split off that one scope while you sit on the other side of the room with the other 95% of the airspace and you'd have to miss their traffic and eat their shitty feed.

 

[PushingTin]

Nope... The core 30 tracon I was at supes had to get 2 scopes out of 7, an arrival and departure scope and that was it. Then they come in at 4 or 5 am to get currency. They'd split off that one scope while you sit on the other side of the room with the other 95% of the airspace and you'd have to miss their traffic and eat their shitty feed.

how about when they have 3 or 4 respected OJTI CPCs recommend someone for certification, and they still REFUSE to do it, even though they arent even themselves qualified on the position. the balls! the nerve! "I need to see you work Summer traffic, even though I washed out of my first facility, went and checked out at a Level 4 tower, and bid back here as a SUP who is dangerous but make $189,600 base so respect my auth-or-it-ah"

 

[ArcherFlyer]

What happens to a supe who transfers to another facility (supe at his/her previous facility) and is unsuccessful? His/her previous position had been filled. What does the Agency usually do in this particular situation?

 

[liter a cola]

What happens to a supe who transfers to another facility (supe at his/her previous facility) and is unsuccessful? His/her previous position had been filled. What does the Agency usually do in this particular situation?

Hahaha yeah right... Supe unsuccessful.... You haven't been in the agency long have you?

 

[FightingIrish2012]

What happens to a supe who transfers to another facility (supe at his/her previous facility) and is unsuccessful? His/her previous position had been filled. What does the Agency usually do in this particular situation?

Good question, I don’t know. Like others said that is extremely rare, in some circumstances I think they are supposed to be moved back to their old facility as a common controller if their old FLM job was filled, but more realistically they will find the person a staff job in the same facility they were sent to be a sup in. This is especially common if it’s a center or large facility with seemingly unlimited staff jobs and no real quota for them.

 

[PushingTin]

What happens to a supe who transfers to another facility (supe at his/her previous facility) and is unsuccessful? His/her previous position had been filled. What does the Agency usually do in this particular situation?

Sups dont wash out, except for in a couple select facilities that want to protect their scams and will wash out someone who isnt gonna "play ball" (long breaks, OT routine, position assignments, training styles, early shoves, tolerating whatever the culture in that operation is, etc etc etc). Either way they don't eat their own for mere operational reasons. Safety is NEVER compromised, even when it is.

Its more common for sups to resign from being a sup and become a controller again. Basically bid a sup job with the intention of resigning, but the sup job let them transfer so it was worth it. Of course you'd lose the raise money but who cares nothing is worth being a FLM. I once had an OM ask a bunch of other FLMS and Union officials if he should pass an especially shitty terrible FLM, who's probation was coming up. Every single person said no way he is awful at the job, causes nothing but problems with the workforce, is a terrible employee, etc etc etc.... and he still said ahhhh hell what am i gonna do im gonna just pass him. So now ya know and you dont hafta be naive about sups anymore!

 

[Termine]

I’ve always thought that part of the issue is that in most jobs people are actually promoted into management/ supervisor positions.

You're thinking of the Peter Principle. From what people are saying, it may be more likely that the Dilbert Principle is more applicable.

 

[COWTOWN]

Had someone wash from a 8 tracon as an flm to an flm at SCT, they got sent to the nest and got a level 5 tower as a cpc-it.