Visual Sep with T&Gs

[OrangeYOGAMat]

If you have a small in the pattern and a large departing (same runway), does the small have to get the large in sight and maintain visual value or can you issue traffic and cautionary wake turbulence.

 

[ajmezz]

You can do it one of two ways. First and easiest, have the small get large in sight, maintain vis caution wt. The second would be to make sure the small doesn’t cross threshold until 3 minutes has passed from the large rotating.

 

[Stinger]

Either visual separation with a cautionary, or 3 minutes from large rotation to small touching down is required.
4 or 5 years ago the 7110.65 was going to change so that just a traffic call and cautionary advisory would be required, but the day before it was supposed to take effect, it was canceled.

 

[breakaway2000]

@ajmezz and @Stinger are dead on.

3-9-7 of the 7110.65

3. Successive touch-and-go or stop-and-go operations are conducted with any aircraft following an aircraft in the pattern that requires wake turbulence separation, or an aircraft departing the same runway that requires wake turbulence separation in accordance with subparas a1, a2, a3, or a4 (except for super aircraft), provided the pilot is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the larger aircraft.

 

[GO]

@ajmezz and @Stinger are dead on.

3-9-7 of the 7110.65

3. Successive touch-and-go or stop-and-go operations are conducted with any aircraft following an aircraft in the pattern that requires wake turbulence separation, or an aircraft departing the same runway that requires wake turbulence separation in accordance with subparas a1, a2, a3, or a4 (except for super aircraft), provided the pilot is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the larger aircraft.

Not that it is needed but I third the above

 

[sizziano]

This is what they teach at the academy so it has to be right!

 

[Stinger]

This is what they teach at the academy so it has to be right!

Just curious but do you think there's something the academy is teaching wrong?
I know there's things they don't allow the students to do, but I can't think of things that are actually taught wrong.

 

[OrangeYOGAMat]

This is my third facility, and the first one to do things that way. Both of the other facilities, it was issue the traffic and cautionary wake turbulence if needed. The big thing at both facilities was let the pattern guy turn base at their discretion, and fly the pattern they wanted. However if the controller told the pattern guy to turn base and he didn't have 3 min that was an OE.

We also got a briefing on it a few months ago about pattern traffic and wake turbulence...probaly should have listen a little more....Lol

 

[sizziano]

Just curious but do you think there's something the academy is teaching wrong?
I know there's things they don't allow the students to do, but I can't think of things that are actually taught wrong.

Not if you have good leads. That being said it was a daily occurrence that an instructor would give one of us bad information etc.

 

[Stinger]

This is my third facility, and the first one to do things that way. Both of the other facilities, it was issue the traffic and cautionary wake turbulence if needed. The big thing at both facilities was let the pattern guy turn base at their discretion, and fly the pattern they wanted. However if the controller told the pattern guy to turn base and he didn't have 3 min that was an OE.

We also got a briefing on it a few months ago about pattern traffic and wake turbulence...probaly should have listen a little more....Lol

Like a lot of things, I put it under "know the rule you're breaking."

After doing the visual separation thing and the pilot isn't turning base, instead of telling the pilot to turn base, just say base approved. They'll turn but you're still legal.

Not if you have good leads. That being said it was a daily occurrence that an instructor would give one of us bad information etc.

Yeah, that happens...but really it's just like being at a facility where not everyone knows what the rules are.

 

[Cardsmall]

Just curious but do you think there's something the academy is teaching wrong?
I know there's things they don't allow the students to do, but I can't think of things that are actually taught wrong.

I know that my last two trainees have come to the facility telling aircraft to hold short of a runway at a specific intersection. For example. Runway 14, Taxi via November Delta...Hold short of runway 20 @ Delta. Don't think that's in the .65. Crossing the run @ sure but not to hold short @

 

[RH316]

Just curious but do you think there's something the academy is teaching wrong?
I know there's things they don't allow the students to do, but I can't think of things that are actually taught wrong.

Academy doesn’t teach this. I graduated last fall and my OJTI freaked on me the first time I trained with him. In the academy it was, and I quote. “ Cessna 2PT #2 traffic, Challenger, 1 mile final Runway 28L cleared T/G. Caution wake turbulence”. according to the .65, (what I’m told and what I’ve read) you need to have visual. “Cessna 2PT #2 follow, challenger 1 mil final, report traffic in sight.” IF THEY have in sight, # 2 Rwy28L cleared for the option causing wake turbulence. “ I’m not, extend them, or clear them to land instead and not the option.

 

[RH316]

Also, I’d like to add. Some of the veteran controllers should really read an updated version of the .65. (Shots fired)

 

[Stinger]

I know that my last two trainees have come to the facility telling aircraft to hold short of a runway at a specific intersection. For example. Runway 14, Taxi via November Delta...Hold short of runway 20 @ Delta. Don't think that's in the .65. Crossing the run @ sure but not to hold short @

That's like a 50/50 issue depending on the academy instructor I've been hearing. It's not wrong, but it's pointless to tell them where to hold short at.

Academy doesn’t teach this. I graduated last fall and my OJTI freaked on me the first time I trained with him. In the academy it was, and I quote. “ Cessna 2PT #2 traffic, Challenger, 1 mile final Runway 28L cleared T/G. Caution wake turbulence”. according to the .65, (what I’m told and what I’ve read) you need to have visual. “Cessna 2PT #2 follow, challenger 1 mil final, report traffic in sight.” IF THEY have in sight, # 2 Rwy28L cleared for the option causing wake turbulence. “ I’m not, extend them, or clear them to land instead and not the option.

Academy way of saying "#2 traffic, etc..." is because using "follow" doesn't ensure the runway separation even though the computer will say something like "follow the first challenger on 2 mile final." So by extending the downwind and then telling the Cessna to turn base along with "#2 traffic" you've ensured runway separation and telling the Cessna to follow the Challenger is redundant because you don't care if the Cessna sees it.

And in your case when the Cessna doesn't see the Challenger and then not clearing for the option....why? There's no wake turbulence requirement other than a traffic exchange to the Cessna and a cautionary call.

 

[sizziano]

Academy doesn’t teach this. I graduated last fall and my OJTI freaked on me the first time I trained with him. In the academy it was, and I quote. “ Cessna 2PT #2 traffic, Challenger, 1 mile final Runway 28L cleared T/G. Caution wake turbulence”. according to the .65, (what I’m told and what I’ve read) you need to have visual. “Cessna 2PT #2 follow, challenger 1 mil final, report traffic in sight.” IF THEY have in sight, # 2 Rwy28L cleared for the option causing wake turbulence. “ I’m not, extend them, or clear them to land instead and not the option.

They absolutely do teach that though you don't need any wake separation behind a large landing and a touch and go behind just an advisory.

 

[Super Salt]

Clear them “Low Approach Only” and call it a day ??

 

[GO]

You can do it one of two ways. First and easiest, have the small get large in sight, maintain vis caution wt. The second would be to make sure the small doesn’t cross threshold until 3 minutes has passed from the large rotating.

Clear them “Low Approach Only” and call it a day ??

Or if you don’t remember until short final you can clear them stop and go, with you calling their departure once the time has passed

 

[RH316]

I misinterpreted orange yoga mat yesterday. I thought I read that the large was in the pattern with the small doing tg’s. I agree with ajmezz’ response.

 

[eltors0]

Or if you don’t remember until short final you can clear them stop and go, with you calling their departure once the time has passed

Please tell me you’re kidding/trolling.

 

[Stinger]

Please tell me you’re kidding/trolling.

What's wrong with that? I've used that tons. "Cleared to land, just hold on the runway and I'll call your departure roll."