Wake Turbulence Separation Between Arrivals/Departures

[ATC720]

I had a couple of questions regarding the application of wake turbulence separation rules.

1.You have Aircraft A (we'll say in the Heavy weight class) in the tower's VFR traffic pattern. Aircraft B (also in the Heavy weight class) calls ready for departure at the full length of the runway. You clear the Aircraft B for takeoff prior to aircraft A's arrival. 7110.65 3-10-3b. says:

"Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight of: The super or heavy to aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving super or heavy on the same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet; The B757/large aircraft to a small aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving B757/large aircraft on the same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet."

If the aircraft in the pattern requests a low approach (therefore becoming a departure as soon as he crosses the landing threshold, what is the separation requirement between these two aircraft (from a wake turbulence standpoint)? I'm familiar with what 3-9-7 says about successive touch-and-gos/stop-and-gos behind a departure provided visual sep/spacing etc, but that is referencing the three minute wake turbulence hold for intersection departures, not the two minute hold for full length. Is it just a cautionary wake turbulence call here or do I have to provide two minutes of space?

2. Same situation except instead of the Aircraft A being in the pattern, he is on an ILS final and is planning to do the option on-the-go to the tower VFR pattern. As far as wake turbulence goes, what is my separation requirement here? It seems kind of questionable from a safety standpoint to just push Aircraft B out with Aircraft A say 3-mile final and probably being on-the-go in less than two minutes behind that heavy departure. On an ILS, he can't do much to avoid wake turbulence, so if he does a touch-and-go behind that departure, applying the rules in 3-9-7 don't seem right as he can't space himself; and if he does a low approach, there's a good chance two minutes have not passed since the heavy departed from the full length of the runway. I'm just not sure how to square up 3-10-3b. with all the paragraphs that talk about two and three minute wake turbulence holds.

I'd appreciate any thoughts

 

[liter a cola]

Report departing traffic in sight, CWT, maintain visual or expect a full stop taxi back. Again for the ILS guy, if they refuse to maintain visual then they can expect a full stop taxi back

I was always taught that you advise arrivals of wake turb and separate departures assuming approach is doing their job. Don't just let the guy downstairs eat a wake deal.

 

[Dolan]

2 minutes in each scenario if no one has anyone in sight

 

[doodii]

Report departing traffic in sight, CWT, maintain visual or expect a full stop taxi back. Again for the ILS guy, if they refuse to maintain visual then they can expect a full stop taxi back

I was always taught that you advise arrivals of wake turb and separate departures assuming approach is doing their job. Don't just let the guy downstairs eat a wake deal.

Lol wut? You absolutely cannot tell an ILS to maintain visual from a departure.

 

[ManBearPig]

2 minutes in each scenario if no one has anyone in sight

Or 5 miles

Lol wut? You absolutely cannot tell an ILS to maintain visual from a departure.

The use of visual separation there wouldn't be for separation on the approach, it would be for the VFR climb out.

On scenario 2, my technique be wake advisory to the guy on the ILS, and just send him around prior to the threshold, ensuring they start their climb. Issue either a 30 or 50 degree turn, or telling them to enter closed traffic. They get the turn with an appreq if going back to radar. Miles is always more better then time.

 

[liter a cola]

Lol wut? You absolutely cannot tell an ILS to maintain visual from a departure.

ManBearPig sums it up. It's for departure separation.

If the field is hard IFR and you are shooting ILS's because you actually need them no one will be playing in the pattern.

 

[doodii]

ManBearPig sums it up. It's for departure separation.

If the field is hard IFR and you are shooting ILS's because you actually need them no one will be playing in the pattern.

You still cannot use it. He’s established on a published instrument approach. A TnG ILS cannot use visual sep from a heavy departure.

 

[sizziano]

Or 5 miles

Pattern guy isn't radar ID'd

 

[WavesAndClouds]

2 minutes in each scenario if no one has anyone in sight

Nah a touch and go is an intersection departure so 3 minutes from rotation of the preceding larger aircraft

 

[WayfaircabinetsCHEAP]

Nah a touch and go is an intersection departure so 3 minutes from rotation of the preceding larger aircraft

The option can be a low approach, which would be a full length departure. 2 minutes is mandatory.

 

[D-Dub]

The option can be a low approach, which would be a full length departure. 2 minutes is mandatory.

Option can also be TnG. Provided the succeeding a/c isn't maintaining visual, it's 3 to conduct a TnG.

 

[rhombus]

I had a couple of questions regarding the application of wake turbulence separation rules.

1.You have Aircraft A (we'll say in the Heavy weight class) in the tower's VFR traffic pattern. Aircraft B (also in the Heavy weight class) calls ready for departure at the full length of the runway. You clear the Aircraft B for takeoff prior to aircraft A's arrival. 7110.65 3-10-3b. says:

"Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight of: The super or heavy to aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving super or heavy on the same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet; The B757/large aircraft to a small aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving B757/large aircraft on the same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet."

If the aircraft in the pattern requests a low approach (therefore becoming a departure as soon as he crosses the landing threshold, what is the separation requirement between these two aircraft (from a wake turbulence standpoint)? I'm familiar with what 3-9-7 says about successive touch-and-gos/stop-and-gos behind a departure provided visual sep/spacing etc, but that is referencing the three minute wake turbulence hold for intersection departures, not the two minute hold for full length. Is it just a cautionary wake turbulence call here or do I have to provide two minutes of space?

2. Same situation except instead of the Aircraft A being in the pattern, he is on an ILS final and is planning to do the option on-the-go to the tower VFR pattern. As far as wake turbulence goes, what is my separation requirement here? It seems kind of questionable from a safety standpoint to just push Aircraft B out with Aircraft A say 3-mile final and probably being on-the-go in less than two minutes behind that heavy departure. On an ILS, he can't do much to avoid wake turbulence, so if he does a touch-and-go behind that departure, applying the rules in 3-9-7 don't seem right as he can't space himself; and if he does a low approach, there's a good chance two minutes have not passed since the heavy departed from the full length of the runway. I'm just not sure how to square up 3-10-3b. with all the paragraphs that talk about two and three minute wake turbulence holds.

I'd appreciate any thoughts

Your logic is mostly good for situation 2. If the ILS is on a 3 mile final and can’t maintain visual separation from the departure then you have to rely on the 3 minute rule, which you definitely wouldn’t have. Full stop or go around. If the ILS is on a 3-mile final and is maintaining visual separation from the departure then the 3-minute rule doesn’t apply.

 

[WayfaircabinetsCHEAP]

Your logic is mostly good for situation 2. If the ILS is on a 3 mile final and can’t maintain visual separation from the departure then you have to rely on the 3 minute rule, which you definitely wouldn’t have. Full stop or go around. If the ILS is on a 3-mile final and is maintaining visual separation from the departure then the 3-minute rule doesn’t apply.

The 2 minute rule applies still. You can’t waive or use visual separation on the 2 minutes.

 

[rhombus]

Lol wut? You absolutely cannot tell an ILS to maintain visual from a departure.

Why not? You can still use your eyeballs on an instrument approach

 

[WayfaircabinetsCHEAP]

3-9-6
l. Do not approve pilot requests to deviate from the required intervals contained in subparagraphs f through k.

 

[Termine]

I was always taught that you advise arrivals of wake turb and separate departures assuming approach is doing their job

Same here, but that was at the academy where all the heavies were IFR itinerant arrivals and departures and the T/G traffic was on a separate runway. If you have a heavy in the traffic pattern for a runway and additional traffic in the pattern on that same runway, are you as the local controller required to provide wake turbulence separation just like the approach controller has to for their traffic? The Opposing Bases podcast touched on this last week and didn't really get anywhere conclusive.

You can’t waive or use visual separation on the 2 minutes.

2 minutes or 4 miles. 3–9–6e says that you can use the time intervals in 3–9–6 f through h, or you can use the miles from 5–5–4g.

 

[doodii]

Because it’s a published instrument ap

Why not? You can still use your eyeballs on an instrument approach

Because it’s a published instrument approach. The controller can provide visual sep for arrival arrival but you can’t do it when wake turbulence is involved. How do ppl not know this? When wake turbulence is involved and you need to apply it you can just make up your own rules.

Tower applied visual between a small option behind a heavy departure? Who trained you? Lol

 

[rhombus]

Because it’s a published instrument ap

Because it’s a published instrument approach. The controller can provide visual sep for arrival arrival but you can’t do it when wake turbulence is involved. How do ppl not know this? When wake turbulence is involved and you need to apply it you can just make up your own rules.

Who said anything about tower applied? Pilot applied can be used all day to avoid wake turbulence losses. How do you not know this?

 

[liter a cola]

Because it’s a published instrument ap

Because it’s a published instrument approach. The controller can provide visual sep for arrival arrival but you can’t do it when wake turbulence is involved. How do ppl not know this? When wake turbulence is involved and you need to apply it you can just make up your own rules.

It's pilot applied visual not controller applied. If a pilot is flying a practice ILS which I would assume because he wants a TnG and he reads back that he'll maintain visual the responsibility to do a TnG and climb above the wake now rests with him.

 

[doodii]

It's pilot applied visual not controller applied. If a pilot is flying a practice ILS which I would assume because he wants a TnG and he reads back that he'll maintain visual the responsibility to do a TnG and climb above the wake now rests with him.

Lol no. Absolutely not. Instruments do not apply to this. VFR pattern or straight-in all day.