Have some of you guys not worked em close? There is a trust in the system, short of flying that helicopter everything was done as could be done.
The same people clutching pearls at a CA are the same that would have talked shit if he'd turned the helo.
The H60 pilots failed the system.
Shikaka said:Have some of you guys not worked em close? There is a trust in the system, short of flying that helicopter everything was done as could be done.
The same people clutching pearls at a CA are the same that would have talked shit if he'd turned the helo.
The H60 pilots failed the system.
When the dude says he has them in sight there’s not much more you can do. Unless they change the rules and say you need to use a mile or something. CA can go off when they are a half mile apart.
32andBelow said:When the dude says he has them in sight there’s not much more you can do. Unless they change the rules and say you need to use a mile or something. CA can go off when they are a half mile apart.
That's what I said, but in a more fun and whimsical manner.
Shikaka said:Have some of you guys not worked em close? There is a trust in the system, short of flying that helicopter everything was done as could be done.
The same people clutching pearls at a CA are the same that would have talked shit if he'd turned the helo.
The H60 pilots failed the system.
The H60 pilots clearly had the traffic on final in sight - not the traffic that was circling.
KP-ATC said:The H60 pilots clearly had the traffic on final in sight - not the traffic that was circling.
Correct - NTSB said the recorder in the Blackhawk missed the portion of the initial traffic call where he said the CRJ was circling to 33
The Blackhawk also keyed their mic for .8 seconds and blocked the controllers instruction of "pass behind the" on the final traffic call.
So yeah... Appears they were looking at the wrong one. Only thing that may have helped is if on the follow-up call he would've said the position of the CRJ and distance. Let's wait for the final report.
+TSRA said:I agree with you.
We deserved a raise. But the DC mid-air was not good for us.
There are a lot of large non-ATC factors that led to that crash. But I was in shock how long that CA was going off while the HELO was not doing what they were told or doing what they said they were going to do.
Not only was the DCA crash not ATCs fault in the least, but it highlighted to the nation the grimmest realities of what can happen to hypothetically fatigued controllers who are overworked from staffing problems to the public eye. And could offer allure and incentive for prospective applicants to make the jump into our workforce if they knew we were to get a healthy raise.
GroundClutter said:Correct - NTSB said the recorder in the Blackhawk missed the portion of the initial traffic call where he said the CRJ was circling to 33
The Blackhawk also keyed their mic for .8 seconds and blocked the controllers instruction of "pass behind the" on the final traffic call.
So yeah... Appears they were looking at the wrong one. Only thing that may have helped is if on the follow-up call he would've said the position of the CRJ and distance. Let's wait for the final report.
I still don’t understand this in part. What you digested here makes perfect sense. However, as someone who has their own personal night vision and have spent a lot of hours behind them, how the fuck do you still not see the blooming anti-collision lights/strobes on other aircraft in the vicinity?! You can see the mere glow of a cigarette from something like 3 miles away with night vision. Missing another jet is beyond me, maybe the Blackhawk pilots locked on the wrong jet and stopped their scan?
KP-ATC said:The H60 pilots clearly had the traffic on final in sight - not the traffic that was circling.
He gave the traffic twice and the H60 responded requesting visual seperation, what do you expect him to do?
Go out there with a stop sign like a crossing guard?
Put some nice cones up with some wands like a marshaller?
Draw a big red circle?
On top of all that, the H60 had bad altitude readouts and the pilots knew it.
Trying to say the H60 was confusing the 3 mile circle for the 10 mile final is such an inept concept when they reported them in sight twice, with positioning the first time and a confirmation the second.
We're drifting off topic but I'll say it again. I know the HELO said they had traffic in sight. I know the Controller told them to pass behind. I know pilot's have responsibilities/obligations too.
But, maybe it's just the way I control. Maybe it's my OCD. But if a pilot is telling me they are going to do something but I observe something else happening, (no action/change from the pilot - in this case the helo NEVER turned away from or maneuvered away from the CRJ's projected flight path even AFTER the "conversation") I'm going to issue a different kind of control instruction or I'm going to do something with the other traffic involved.
It's a little bit like dealing with a kid. You can tell a kid to stop doing something. But if they don't listen (or do it more) do you not do something else?
On topic though, I think we deserve a raise (I didn't mean to imply that before). I just mean that certain political circles, maybe the Union, and some of the public might not sympathize due to ongoing events.
+TSRA said:We're drifting off topic but I'll say it again. I know the HELO said they had traffic in sight. I know the Controller told them to pass behind. I know pilot's have responsibilities/obligations too.
But, maybe it's just the way I control. Maybe it's my OCD. But if a pilot is telling me they are going to do something but I observe something else happening, (no action/change from the pilot - in this case the helo NEVER turned away from or maneuvered away from the CRJ's projected flight path even AFTER the "conversation") I'm going to issue a different kind of control instruction or I'm going to do something with the other traffic involved.
It's a little bit like dealing with a kid. You can tell a kid to stop doing something. But if they don't listen (or do it more) do you not do something else?
On topic though, I think we deserve a raise (I didn't mean to imply that before). I just mean that certain political circles, maybe the Union, and some of the public might not sympathize due to ongoing events.
I respect this opinion... I'm a big "you know what, fuck that turn left heading xxx" kinda guy. But I deal with lots of students and non participating vfrs
SquawkHijack said:I still don’t understand this in part. What you digested here makes perfect sense. However, as someone who has their own personal night vision and have spent a lot of hours behind them, how the fuck do you still not see the blooming anti-collision lights/strobes on other aircraft in the vicinity?! You can see the mere glow of a cigarette from something like 3 miles away with night vision. Missing another jet is beyond me, maybe the Blackhawk pilots locked on the wrong jet and stopped their scan?
How is your peripheral vision with those NVGs on? How about your depth perception?
Shikaka said:He gave the traffic twice and the H60 responded requesting visual seperation, what do you expect him to do?
Go out there with a stop sign like a crossing guard?
Put some nice cones up with some wands like a marshaller?
Draw a big red circle?
On top of all that, the H60 had bad altitude readouts and the pilots knew it.
Trying to say the H60 was confusing the 3 mile circle for the 10 mile final is such an inept concept when they reported them in sight twice, with positioning the first time and a confirmation the second.
The primary purpose of the ATC system is?
Was the CRJ advised of the H60?
Was a traffic alert issued?
Had the H60 altered course to the left (off the helicopter route they were cleared on) they would have missed by what - 100'-200'? Is that acceptable?
KP-ATC said:The primary purpose of the ATC system is?
Was the CRJ advised of the H60?
Was a traffic alert issued?
Had the H60 altered course to the left (off the helicopter route they were cleared on) they would have missed by what - 100'-200'? Is that acceptable?
The primary purpose was stasified as soon as the H60 requested visual (TWICE) and local approved.
Traffic should have been called, I agree. Unless there is some local ordinace expressing a system otherwise.
Why would you issue a traffic alert for traffic already separated?
I agree, the H60 fucked up and probably should have not hit the RJ. Probably they should have flown it at a correct altitude as well.
You say some real ass type shit, your a supe or TMU ain't you? To think visual seperation is used MILLIONS of times a year, and this is the scenario where you think ATC messed up.
If you want to be replaced by AI, then our job is definitely done after a correct readback. You can obviously kick your feet up and stop looking if everyone has good read backs.
Shikaka said:The primary purpose was stasified as soon as the H60 requested visual (TWICE) and local approved.
Traffic should have been called, I agree. Unless there is some local ordinace expressing a system otherwise.
Why would you issue a traffic alert for traffic already separated?
I agree, the H60 fucked up and probably should have not hit the RJ. Probably they should have flown it at a correct altitude as well.
You say some real ass type shit, your a supe or TMU ain't you? To think visual seperation is used MILLIONS of times a year, and this is the scenario where you think ATC messed up.
If they were separated, they won't have hit.
Nothanks said:I would suggest all you morons stop discussing a tragic accident where people died. The NTSB has a job to do, let them do it.
I promise, none of our debate will hinder the NTSB in doing their job
Shikaka said:The primary purpose was stasified as soon as the H60 requested visual (TWICE) and local approved.
Traffic should have been called, I agree. Unless there is some local ordinace expressing a system otherwise.
Why would you issue a traffic alert for traffic already separated?
I agree, the H60 fucked up and probably should have not hit the RJ. Probably they should have flown it at a correct altitude as well.
You say some real ass type shit, your a supe or TMU ain't you? To think visual seperation is used MILLIONS of times a year, and this is the scenario where you think ATC messed up.
I'm a vatsim controller. It's even better than the real thing.
+TSRA said:If they were separated, they won't have hit.
The local controller established the seperation, the helo pilots failed to maintain it. Like I said before, short of flying the helo himself, there was nothing more local could have done since the trust was in the pilot.
KP-ATC said:I'm a vatsim controller. It's even better than the real thing.
This is true, all hail the Vat where chaos is called to order.
Shikaka said:The local controller established the seperation, the helo pilots failed to maintain it. Like I said before, short of flying the helo himself, there was nothing more local could have done since the trust was in the pilot.
This is true, all hail the Vat where chaos is called to order.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. I’m not trying to imply saying the controller is at fault. Any of us could have been put in this very scenario and it would likely happen again without radical change to how we operate. I just think that if you turn a blind eye to the glaring issue of what is an appropriate use of visual separation and what isn’t, then this is bound to happen again. If we have so much going on that we can’t judge that or if we don’t work as a team to read the situations and call it out, it’s the same deal.
eltors0 said:I have to respectfully disagree with you. I’m not trying to imply saying the controller is at fault. Any of us could have been put in this very scenario and it would likely happen again without radical change to how we operate. I just think that if you turn a blind eye to the glaring issue of what is an appropriate use of visual separation and what isn’t, then this is bound to happen again. If we have so much going on that we can’t judge that or if we don’t work as a team to read the situations and call it out, it’s the same deal.
I agree, the system is sketchy and I haven't said anything saying it isn't. It's the people saying the controller should have turned him like +TSRA and KP-ATC or that it was somehow his fault. The entire .65 is rigged to let helicopters do sketchy shit. The DCA airspace is screwed by Congress.
The guy working local did absolutely nothing wrong, and he worked it within the confines of which he was supposed to. The H60 didn't hold up their responsibility.
Helicopters passing close behind traffic is not an unusual operation in any tower. Maybe the rules should change, but those two implying the controller was at fault is fucked.
+TSRA said:There are a lot of large non-ATC factors that led to that crash. But I was in shock how long that CA was going off while the HELO was not doing what they were told or doing what they said they were going to do.
KP-ATC said:The H60 pilots clearly had the traffic on final in sight - not the traffic that was circling.
Not only that the pilot was on a published procedure that was supposed to deconflict them.
SquawkHijack said:Not only was the DCA crash not ATCs fault in the least, but it highlighted to the nation the grimmest realities of what can happen to hypothetically fatigued controllers who are overworked from staffing problems to the public eye. And could offer allure and incentive for prospective applicants to make the jump into our workforce if they knew we were to get a healthy raise.
This isint fucking Breaking Bad dude.
Shikaka said:The local controller established the seperation, the helo pilots failed to maintain it. Like I said before, short of flying the helo himself, there was nothing more local could have done since the trust was in the pilot.
When, if ever, would you issue a traffic alert? Do you think one was warranted in this situation?
I can’t imagine looking at the leaked replay, seeing the altitude and history trails of those two targets, and not issuing a traffic alert. I’m also shocked that this is somehow a minority opinion on here.
There’s so much that the local could have done, and I struggle to understand those who say otherwise.
I’ll wait for the NTSB to professionally say who is at fault, but I would never work traffic like that, and never accept a trainee working like that during OJT.
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