Pop-Up VFR to IFR clearance

[DELTAxxKILO]

When a pop-up VFR aircraft calls below the MVA requesting their IFR clearance, do you ALWAYS give the phraseology - (Aircraft call sign), ARE YOU ABLE TO MAINTAIN YOUR OWN TERRAIN AND OBSTRUCTION CLEARANCE UNTIL REACHING (appropriate MVA/MIA/MEA/OROCA)

I do not, and always get in an argument about it.

4-2-8d
When VFR aircraft operating below the minimum altitude for IFR operations requests an IFR clearance and the pilot informs you, or you are aware, that they are unable to climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR altitude:
1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.


If the pilot hasn't informed me, and I'm not aware that they can't, then why would I ask? I don't assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA, I just give them clearance, and tell them leaving X altitude proceed direct X or proceed on course.

 

[7four11]

You are correct. The note directly below the phraseology example states:

“NOTE−
Pilots of pop−up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude
(MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction
transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be
in effect below the MIA or MEA.”

The AIM backs that up with 4-4-9

“VFR/IFR Flights
A pilot departing VFR, either intending to or needing to obtain an IFR clearance en route, must be aware of the position of the aircraft and the relative terrain/obstructions. When accepting a clearance below the MEA/MIA/MVA/OROCA, pilots are responsible for their own terrain/obstruction clearance until reaching the MEA/MIA/MVA/OROCA. If pilots are unable to maintain terrain/obstruction clearance, the controller should be advised and pilots should state their intentions.”

 

[GroundClutter]

If the pilot hasn't informed me, and I'm not aware that they can't, then why would I ask? I don't assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA, I just give them clearance, and tell them leaving X altitude proceed direct X or proceed on course.

You don't even need to do that.

"Cleared to XXX as filled..." is not specific course guidance. A pilot who departs VFR intending to pick-up their filled IFR flight plan airborne has to have reasonable expectation to be able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude maintaining VFR.

 

[Termine]

There is an Interpretation on this exact scenario and you can find it on this site. Interpretation 25

A controller cannot be aware that a pilot is unable to maintain VFR in any given location without the pilot stating so. If the pilot states it is not possible to maintain VFR, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude (FAAO 7110.65V, 4-2-8d(1)).

Now personally I was trained, and this makes sense to me, that if all the airports in your sector are reporting OVC014, and once you convert to MSL that's lower than your MVA... in the interests of safety and providing good service to a pilot who might not understand what their responsibilities are, you could reasonably be aware that they're unable to climb VFR to the MVA and you could ask them the question. But who knows, maybe they found a hole in the layer that the AWOS didn't see. The interpretation says that you only have to ask if the pilot has specifically stated they are unable to maintain VFR up to the MVA.

If all airports in your sector are reporting CLR 10SM, then I'm in complete agreement with you and I would not ask the question. Just issue the clearance and go.

A pilot who departs VFR intending to pick-up their filled IFR flight plan airborne has to have reasonable expectation to be able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude maintaining VFR.

Not entirely true, otherwise why would we have this part of the book? They have to have an expectation of maintaining VFR up to the minimum altitude, OR they have to accept responsibility for their own IFR terrain clearance up to the minimum altitude even while IMC (once you've issued the clearance of course).

 

[slater]

Say the MVA is 2,000.

I'd say, leaving 2000 feet, cleared to XXX via XYZ, climb and maintain XXX. 👌

 

[32andBelow]

There is an Interpretation on this exact scenario and you can find it on this site. Interpretation 25



Now personally I was trained, and this makes sense to me, that if all the airports in your sector are reporting OVC014, and once you convert to MSL that's lower than your MVA... in the interests of safety and providing good service to a pilot who might not understand what their responsibilities are, you could reasonably be aware that they're unable to climb VFR to the MVA and you could ask them the question. But who knows, maybe they found a hole in the layer that the AWOS didn't see. The interpretation says that you only have to ask if the pilot has specifically stated they are unable to maintain VFR up to the MVA.

If all airports in your sector are reporting CLR 10SM, then I'm in complete agreement with you and I would not ask the question. Just issue the clearance and go.


Not entirely true, otherwise why would we have this part of the book? They have to have an expectation of maintaining VFR up to the minimum altitude, OR they have to accept responsibility for their own IFR terrain clearance up to the minimum altitude even while IMC (once you've issued the clearance of course).

How are they supposed to know what the minimum altitude is if you don’t tell them ?

 

[Sassyquatch]

At my facility, we were told from management that we can only say "are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance through X,000?" if it's a VFR aircraft asking for IFR only because they are about to encounter IFR conditions. Some people still say it regardless but we've been told it isn't correct.

We have a really really busy satellite airport in mountainous terrain that has an ODP that maybe 20% of aircraft use. If an aircraft departs vfr looking for their IFR, I'll say "leaving X,000 (above highest MVA in the area), cleared to KXXX as filed, maintain XX,000". I've been told from another controller that the "leaving X,000" is unnecessary & that the pilot is already assuming terrain & obstruction clearance by departing VFR but it's more comfortable for me to include it as a cya.

 

[32andBelow]

What do you guys say if they are a true pop up and they aren’t filed?

 

[eltors0]

What do you guys say if they are a true pop up and they aren’t filed?

I’ve always given them the schpiel when they call airborne below the MVA and not appearing to climb to reach above it by end of of the transmission/appear to be intentionally staying below it, regardless of weather conditions. The supposed region interpretation is that it’s not necessary (somehow?), but I just personally do not agree and don’t see how it would hurt the operation because it clarifies responsibility more explicitly.

 

[32andBelow]

I’ve always given them the schpiel when they call airborne below the MVA and not appearing to climb to reach above it by end of of the transmission/appear to be intentionally staying below it, regardless of weather conditions. The supposed region interpretation is that it’s not necessary (somehow?), but I just personally do not agree and don’t see how it would hurt the operation because it clarifies responsibility more explicitly.

We were absolutely trained to and everyone I work with does. Just curious hearing everyone else’s take

 

[Soul_Controller]

My airspace is flat so I don't worry about cyaing as much. But my problem with the phraseology is unhelpful. If the pilot answers "no" then all you've done is place yourself in a position where more then likely you or the pilot have to declare an emergency and you end up climbing him anyways.

 

[GroundClutter]

What do you guys say if they are a true pop up and they aren’t filed?

Are they above the MIA? Clear them.

Are they below? Give them the spiel.

 

[eltors0]

My airspace is flat so I don't worry about cyaing as much. But my problem with the phraseology is unhelpful. If the pilot answers "no" then all you've done is place yourself in a position where more then likely you or the pilot have to declare an emergency and you end up climbing him anyways.

That’s the whole point of the phraseology, regardless of if it’s meant to be of helpful service because clarifies if you have to make a control instruction under duress in a spot where you would not normally have responsibility for safety of flight.

 

[Termine]

Say the MVA is 2,000.

I'd say, leaving 2000 feet, cleared to XXX via XYZ, climb and maintain XXX.

That's fine if the ceilings are above 2000 feet. What if they aren't, what do you say?

The book tells us what to do in that case: Ask if the pilot is able to accept their own separation responsibility. If they can, issue the IFR clearance even though they're below the MVA and let them climb. If they can't accept responsibility, tell them to maintain VFR and advise intentions.

How are they supposed to know what the minimum altitude is if you don’t tell them ?

Yeah that's a real good question. I guess according to the interpretation-writers the pilot is supposed to realize they can't climb to the MEA/OROCA under VFR, so they say that, and then you say "well what about this MIA/MVA instead." But given how bad the consequences could be if the pilot doesn't know that they take on their own separation responsibility I agree with you that asking is the best move if the WX is marginal.

At my facility, we were told from management that we can only say "are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance through X,000?" if it's a VFR aircraft asking for IFR only because they are about to encounter IFR conditions.

Your management is flat-out wrong on this one, and dangerously so. This isn't the "aircraft experiencing WX difficulty" section from Chapter 10, it's the normal IFR procedures from Chapter 4. It applies to all aircraft requesting pop-up IFR.

If an aircraft departs vfr looking for their IFR, I'll say "leaving X,000 (above highest MVA in the area), cleared to KXXX as filed, maintain XX,000".

See above reply to slater. That's fine if the ceilings are high, but you just tied the pilot's hands if they aren't.

What do you guys say if they are a true pop up and they aren’t filed?

If the WX is known (by me) to be marginal and they're below the MVA, I ask the question. If the WX is known (by me) to be perfectly clear, or if they're above the MVA already, issue the clearance right away.

 

[DELTAxxKILO]

We were absolutely trained to and everyone I work with does. Just curious hearing everyone else’s take

I was trained to as well but have changed my mind since, I just never say it unless the pilot even hints at not being able to climb vfr. I agree it doesn't hurt to add it though why not

 

[meanjoe]

That's fine if the ceilings are above 2000 feet. What if they aren't, what do you say?

The book tells us what to do in that case: Ask if the pilot is able to accept their own separation responsibility. If they can, issue the IFR clearance even though they're below the MVA and let them climb. If they can't accept responsibility, tell them to maintain VFR and advise intentions.


Yeah that's a real good question. I guess according to the interpretation-writers the pilot is supposed to realize they can't climb to the MEA/OROCA under VFR, so they say that, and then you say "well what about this MIA/MVA instead." But given how bad the consequences could be if the pilot doesn't know that they take on their own separation responsibility I agree with you that asking is the best move if the WX is marginal.


Your management is flat-out wrong on this one, and dangerously so. This isn't the "aircraft experiencing WX difficulty" section from Chapter 10, it's the normal IFR procedures from Chapter 4. It applies to all aircraft requesting pop-up IFR.


See above reply to slater. That's fine if the ceilings are high, but you just tied the pilot's hands if they aren't.


If the WX is known (by me) to be marginal and they're below the MVA, I ask the question. If the WX is known (by me) to be perfectly clear, or if they're above the MVA already, issue the clearance right away.

This. ☝️

And to pile on slightly.

“ Leaving 2000 cleared to XXX airport” doesn’t work if the ceiling is below 2k. The pilot can’t legally enter the clouds and climb to the MVA if they aren’t issued a clearance.

“cleared to xxx, climb and maintain xxx, leaving 2k fly heading xxx”- pilot gets their clearance (assuming they answered yes to the terrain and obstruction question). Can now enter the clouds and received no course guidance until they were at or abv the mva.

How is it they are maintaining their own terrain and obstruction clearance if they’re IMC and not established on a DP? DKDC. But maybe they are near an airport they are familiar with and know that if they’re at altitude xxx and climbing at X ft/nm they’ll miss them all. But again, don’t know don’t care.