Will NATCA and the FAA extend the contract?
- Thread starter Wookie
- Start date
Oh yeah definitely. Maybe we can be grandfathered or something. I’m just really trying to be hopeful. I feel like our FERs will be grandfathered. And possibly TSP. But I’m not well versed in all this shit. Weren’t the CSRS folks grandfathered?
It's copy pasted from an AI search engine.
32andBelow
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They couldn’t touch our tsp balance. They could mess with the match.
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Not quite there buddy. It's a combination of notebook lm (which can help generate conversational tones and good questions) as well as chatgpt (with sources loaded in for quick summaries)
Someone without knowledge of both how to use ai and the intricate system and contract dance could not just pull this up in chat gpt.
For instance I whole heartedly think that we need to make the public a bit more aware of our job and challenges. No ai suggested making a movie
Continuing on i went through and listed the executive orders and summaries, and additional websites and stories and archived the natca page etc.
Ai was used to streamline workflow on something i was already doing. hardly to generate a post.
PooseMaGoose
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I'm here for you. Let it out brother... the next 4 years will be a rough go, but I'm here as your punching bag as long as you need me to cope. It will be ok! You can get through this. We are all rooting for you.
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Intro
Under a Trump administration, air traffic controllers could face significant changes driven by both the administration’s broader policies on federal employees and its stance on privatizing the air traffic control (ATC) system. Here’s an analysis of possible outcomes based on our discussion:
1. Push for Privatization of Air Traffic Control
Likely Outcome: Trump has previously advocated for privatizing the ATC system, arguing that this shift would lead to modernization, efficiency, and better funding opportunities outside of federal control. If privatization efforts are revived, ATC operations could move to a nonprofit or private corporation, similar to models in other countries.
Impact on Controllers: While privatization may bring promises of updated technology and potential financial security for air traffic controllers, it could also lead to a major reorganization. Controllers might face changes in job security, benefits, and union representation depending on the privatization structure. A privatized ATC could prioritize cost efficiency and performance metrics, potentially impacting working conditions.
2. Increased Job Vulnerability with Schedule F
Likely Outcome: Trump previously introduced Schedule F to classify certain federal positions as “at-will,” making it easier to fire or reassign federal employees. If this policy is reinstated, controllers could face an environment where their roles are more vulnerable to political and performance-based pressures.
Impact on Controllers: If air traffic controllers were included in this classification, their job security could be compromised, leading to concerns over termination or reclassification without the protections they currently hold. This could affect morale and the ability to negotiate collectively, especially if viewed as federal bureaucrats rather than essential safety professionals.
3. Union Restrictions and Impact on Collective Bargaining
Likely Outcome: Trump's executive orders previously limited federal unions' access to resources and official time for union activities. If similar restrictions are reimposed, union activities for air traffic controllers could be hampered, making it harder for representatives to advocate effectively.
Impact on Controllers: Reduced union power could weaken the controllers’ ability to negotiate favorable contract terms, particularly if privatization becomes a focus. Limitations on official time and collective bargaining might impact their ability to address workplace grievances, pursue improvements in working conditions, and maintain membership engagement.
4. Focus on Trades but Potential Bureaucrat Labeling
Likely Outcome: While Trump has voiced support for unions in skilled trades, there’s a risk that federal air traffic controllers could be categorized as bureaucrats rather than essential trade professionals. This perception might lead to policies that prioritize cost-cutting over labor protections.
Impact on Controllers: If controllers are seen as bureaucrats rather than public safety professionals, they may face increased restrictions typical of federal workers under a Trump administration. However, positioning themselves as a trade profession focused on public safety—akin to firefighters and police officers—could potentially shield them from more extreme workforce reduction policies.
5. Union Strategy, Public Perception, and Media Advocacy
Likely Outcome: Given the potential pressures on job security and union representation, the air traffic controllers’ union (NATCA) may work to elevate the profession’s visibility as a public safety role. One strategic approach could involve collaborating with a major film studio to produce a high-stakes, adrenaline-filled movie showcasing the lives and challenges of tower, terminal, and enroute controllers. Such a film could highlight not only the technical expertise and vigilance required in air traffic control but also underscore the public safety aspect, potentially tying in real-life scenarios that emphasize the critical role controllers play in national security.
Impact on Controllers: A well-produced, widely distributed movie could help shift public perception, framing air traffic controllers as essential first responders rather than bureaucratic federal employees. This narrative could build public support, making it politically challenging for any administration to cut labor protections or pursue aggressive restructuring. The film could also help NATCA counter arguments for privatization by showcasing the unique demands and skill sets involved in federal ATC work, positioning controllers as essential to the safe, reliable operation of national airspace.
Worst-Case Future Predictions
In a worst-case scenario, government employees may be moved to Schedule F status, making them “at-will” employees who can be easily dismissed (Source 4). This reclassification would align with previous plans to target perceived "deep state" personnel and could mirror prior executive orders aimed at easing the removal of federal employees. To safeguard against this, privatization may emerge as a protective strategy (Source 3).
Following privatization, a consolidation project would likely be initiated. While this may take longer than four years to fully implement, by the next contract cycle, we could face conditions reminiscent of the restrictive "White Book 2.0,” and also now you can be fired at anytime for any reason.
During his presidency, Donald Trump made several statements regarding the U.S. air traffic control (ATC) system and its controllers: (Source 1 and 2 additionally)
Critique of the Existing System: Trump described the ATC system as outdated and inefficient, attributing its shortcomings to previous administrations, particularly President Obama's. He emphasized the need for modernization to enhance safety and efficiency.
Support for Privatization: Advocating for the privatization of the ATC system, Trump proposed transferring operations from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to a nonprofit entity. He argued that this move would facilitate technological advancements and reduce delays.President Donald J. Trump’s Principles for Reforming the U.S. Air Traffic Control System – The White House
trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov
Valuing Air Traffic Controllers: Trump acknowledged the critical role of air traffic controllers, stating that under his proposed system, they would receive greater financial security and access to superior equipment.
Trump calls for privatizing air traffic control operations
Trump is also calling for the elimination of subsidized air service to rural communities, many of which supported his election last year.www.pbs.org
Remarks on Reforming the Air Traffic Control System | The American Presidency Project
www.presidency.ucsb.edu
Has Trump kept promises?
Trump-O-Meter : Tracking Trump’s first-term campaign promises | PolitiFact
PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.www.politifact.com
Trump’s Statements and Actions Regarding Unions
While Donald Trump often expressed pro-union sentiment, particularly in support of certain trades, his administration took actions that were perceived as anti-union, especially for federal workers. This distinction highlights a tension: if air traffic controllers are viewed similarly to skilled trades, there may be a more favorable outcome; however, if they are seen as bureaucrats, challenges could increase.
Overview Pro-Union Sentiments:
Trump voiced support for unionized workers in specific industries, particularly in the private sector and skilled trades, emphasizing the importance of American jobs and manufacturing. He praised union members in fields like construction, emphasizing his commitment to protecting American workers from outsourcing and trade policies perceived as unfair.
Overview Anti-Union Executive Orders:
In practice, Trump’s executive orders imposed several restrictions on federal unions:
Reduced Official Time for Union Activities: The orders limited the official time that union representatives could spend on union duties during work hours, making it more difficult to advocate for members on issues like workplace grievances.
Streamlined Removal Procedures: Discipline and removal processes for federal employees were expedited, reducing the timeframes for performance improvement plans. This led to concerns about job security and fears of unjust terminations due to reduced opportunities for employee improvement.
Worker Experiences:
On forums like Reddit, Airliners, Pointsixtyfive, and Fednews, federal employees shared accounts of the impacts of these policies. Common themes included difficulties in union representation, reduced access to resources for union activities, and concerns over the faster disciplinary processes. These firsthand accounts provide insight into individual experiences but may not fully represent the broader impact across all federal agencies.
Biden’s Reversal of Schedule F:
In contrast, President Biden repealed Trump’s Schedule F executive order, which would have reclassified certain federal employees as “at-will” under Schedule F, making them more easily dismissible. Biden’s repeal reflects a shift back towards traditional protections for federal employees and unions.
Pro-Union Sentiment
Although Trump’s policies sometimes conflicted with union interests, he took several actions that were initially seen as supportive of unionized labor in certain industries. This sentiment was widely noted, especially among supporters on platforms like Fatporrey and Phillyman, where pro-Trump union stickers were shared.
Trade Policies and Tariffs
Trump’s tariffs on steel and aluminum were introduced to protect U.S. industries from foreign competition. Initially, this garnered support from unions like the United Steelworkers, who hoped it would benefit American steelworkers. However, reactions from unions became mixed as downstream industries experienced increased material costs, which complicated the policy’s overall impact.
United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA)
Replacing NAFTA, the USMCA included specific labor provisions aimed at improving labor standards in Mexico, thereby reducing outsourcing incentives and creating a more level playing field for American workers. Some unions supported this effort, recognizing it as a step forward in protecting U.S. manufacturing jobs.
Pipeline and Energy Policies (Keystone XL and Dakota Access Pipelines)
Trump’s backing of major energy infrastructure projects, such as the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines, received support from unions like the Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA). These unions emphasized the job creation potential of such projects, although environmental and other concerns led to polarized views on the long-term impact.
Apprenticeship Programs
Trump aimed to expand apprenticeship programs to bolster skill development in industries with unionized trades. While the emphasis was primarily on non-union apprenticeships, which led to some union apprehensions, the initiative was broadly viewed as a positive step toward developing a skilled workforce.
Anti-Union Legislation
Reduction in Official Time and Union Resources
Executive Order 13837 limited the amount of “official time” that federal employees could use for union activities during work hours and restricted the use of government resources, like office space and equipment, for union purposes. This restriction reduced the ability of union representatives to effectively advocate for their members, with the American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE) reporting significant challenges due to these constraints. (Source 5)
Legal Challenges and Court Rulings
Unions responded to these executive orders with lawsuits, arguing that the restrictions violated collective bargaining rights. In August 2018, a federal district judge invalidated several key provisions, ruling that they undermined federal employees' right to union representation. However, in July 2019, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit overturned this decision, stating that the district court lacked jurisdiction and that disputes should be resolved through the Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA). (Source 6)
Impact on Collective Bargaining
The executive orders also sought to expedite the collective bargaining process by reducing negotiation times and limiting the scope of negotiable issues. While intended to reduce costs and streamline agreements, these restrictions impacted the depth and effectiveness of bargaining. Unions raised concerns that the shortened timeframes and narrowed scope limited their ability to negotiate favorable terms for their members. (Source 5)
Union Responses and Adaptations
In response to these challenges, unions developed alternative strategies to support their members, including an increased reliance on volunteer efforts and advocating for legislative remedies. The National Treasury Employees Union (NTEU), for instance, highlighted the need for legislative action to safeguard federal employees' rights and counter the effects of these executive orders. (Source 7)
What is the actual Plan for Privatization?
In Chapter 19, (Source 10) the recommendations specifically targeting the aviation industry emphasize decentralization, efficiency, and a shift towards private-sector involvement. Here’s a breakdown:
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Reform:
Split Functions: The chapter suggests separating the FAA’s regulatory oversight from its air traffic control (ATC) operations. This separation could allow the FAA to focus on safety regulation while potentially transitioning ATC functions to a non-governmental entity, similar to models used in Canada and the UK.
Privatization of Air Traffic Control: A key recommendation is to explore privatizing air traffic control, proposing a system where a nonprofit or private corporation could manage ATC services. Advocates argue that a privatized model might increase efficiency and allow quicker technology upgrades.
Modernization and Technology:
Accelerate Technology Adoption: The FAA should more actively adopt and promote new technologies like satellite-based navigation and advanced communication systems, which would enhance airspace efficiency and safety.
Encourage Private Investment: The recommendations encourage partnerships with private industry to develop and fund technological innovations in air traffic management and airport infrastructure.
Reduce Regulatory Burden:
Streamline Certification Processes: Simplify the FAA’s aircraft certification process, enabling manufacturers to bring new technologies to market faster.
Review Safety Standards: The chapter suggests that safety standards be continually reviewed to ensure they are current and not overburdening the industry.
Encourage Competition and Efficiency in Airports:
Encourage Private Investment in Airports: There is a push for privatizing airports or adopting public-private partnership (P3) models, where private investors could fund and operate airport infrastructure.
Reduce Federal Funding for Airports: By scaling back federal grants, the chapter argues that airports will be incentivized to adopt more efficient, business-oriented models, aligning operations with local needs.
Trump has stated he doesn’t know Endorse Project 2025 but just hired the ICE and then there’s a whole rolling stone article about his staff knowing.
Source
Republicans Celebrate by Admitting They Can't Wait for Project 2025
Donald Trump's supporters celebrated their plans to implement Project 2025 after months claiming they had nothing to do with the former president.www.rollingstone.com
Links
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President Donald J. Trump’s Principles for Reforming the U.S. Air Traffic Control System – The White House
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Debunking ATC Reform Myths
Myth: Reform will erase everything federal aviation employees have worked for: pay, pension, retirement, and negotiation power. Myth: Air traffic control reform will eliminate delays. Myth: NATCA just wants to privatize air traffic control at any […]web.archive.org
Agenda47: President Trump’s Plan to Dismantle the Deep State and Return Power to the American People | Donald J. Trump For President 2024
Certified Website of Donald J. Trump For President 2024. America's comeback starts right now. Join our movement to Make America Great Again!www.donaldjtrump.com
Executive Order on Creating Schedule F In The Excepted Service – The White House
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Trump’s executive order on unions will hurt federal employees
President Trump's executive order on labor unions will prevent federal employees from being able to pursue complaints about unfair labor practices.www.brookings.edu
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Court reverses decision on Trump’s workforce executive orders, defying unions’ legal challenge
A federal judge invalidated nine provisions of the President’s workforce executive orders in a ruling last August. But the U.S. Court of Appeals overturned that decision Tuesday.federalnewsnetwork.com
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UPDATED: Biden repeals Schedule F, overturns Trump workforce policies with new executive order
President Joe Biden took executive action Friday to repeal at least four Trump-era executive orders that limited collective bargaining and stripped certain job protections from career federal employees.
Trump gutted federal employee unions. They believe he'd do it again
Federal employee unions are fervently supporting Kamala Harris for president, in part because they like her pro-labor policies, but just as much because they fear a second Trump term.www.ijpr.org
Project 2025 and your federal job: Better read up on this one
Project 2025 is not some mysterious force from nowhere. Check out the project web site to see who's behind it and their prescription for the federal workforce.
Executive Order on Worker Organizing and Empowerment | The White House
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is herebywww.whitehouse.gov
Executive Order on Protecting the Federal Workforce | The White House
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1.
UPDATED: Biden repeals Schedule F, overturns Trump workforce policies with new executive order
President Joe Biden took executive action Friday to repeal at least four Trump-era executive orders that limited collective bargaining and stripped certain job protections from career federal employees.
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HurryUpandWait
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Hence the political bias of no response about tariffs when Biden does it but when Trump does it there is criticism. Rinse and repeat
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Sources?
HurryUpandWait
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Huh
Absolutely.. the only time the public hears about us is when it is in a negative light. They have no clue about our work schedules, pay, and amount of traffic we are moving with outdated equipment and technology
32andBelow
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Trumps talking about extremely broad tariffs.
PooseMaGoose
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A great use of AI. Well put
Somenewguy
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On the plus side, some of the people who voted for this will get fired when we become at will employees for not wearing a tie, using a cell phone on break, or talking back to a supervisor.
For the people who have no problem with gutting of other federal agencies but see yourself as some exception... just know that there is another dumbass employee working for the next 3 letter agency thinks the same about you.
For the people who have no problem with gutting of other federal agencies but see yourself as some exception... just know that there is another dumbass employee working for the next 3 letter agency thinks the same about you.
It's amusing how many controllers whine about taxes and government yet have had their entire adult lives subsidized by the government. Military, Contract, DoD, FAA. But they got theirs so fuck everyone else.
I already got a 14 day suspension that I’m trying to lower to less than 5 days for standing up to a supervisor 🤷🏻♂️
Somenewguy
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Going into republican leadership with disciplinary action already on the record. Good luck my dude.
meh…. Life goes on. What can you do?
The real funny part is I stood up for myself because the supe made racist comments towards me but I’m the one who got in trouble
TSP should be yours if vested. I believe the last proposal for privatization in 2017 was employee option to stay in FERs or move to an enhanced TSP matching. I would say that is best case scenario but who knows. Incoming Trump admin seems a lot more aggressive than the last.
32andBelow
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I guess I meant future matching.
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One other thing is the constitution says no more than 2 consecutive terms so theoretical 8 years of Trump
