nab said:Class B,C,D multipliers need eliminated and reduce TCI levels by 25%. Your airspace level has zero affect on complexity. I have no idea how this was agreed upon in appendix A as a complexity factor.
What?
The airspace type defines what type of separation standard you maintain, and it does get more complicated as it goes from D to C to B.
nab said:Class B,C,D multipliers need eliminated and reduce TCI levels by 25%. Your airspace level has zero affect on complexity. I have no idea how this was agreed upon in appendix A as a complexity factor.
Seeing where you work, I can see why this is an issue for y'all. Central Texas Bravo!
Somenewguy said:What?
The airspace type defines what type of separation standard you maintain, and it does get more complicated as it goes from D to C to B.
What? So protected class B is more difficult than unprotected class C dodging random VFRS all day? What’s the separation difference between class C/D? Class C/B difference is if you’re class B you can actually separate the planes you’re talking to compared to class C you have no idea what they’re doing. 1.5 miles and 500 feet class B separation doesn’t mean anything when an airplane gets an RA at 600 feet no matter what. You think class C is separating by 500 feet? What’s your background on this anyway? I assume class B airspace?
VFR Class D = Tower sequences everything
Everyone else = Approach handles the sequence
Yet Class D get 0% and everyone else gets complexity bonuses
If you have worked LC at both, you understand. GC is obviously different, but they don't count ground as a complexity factor for some reason
S.T.O.P. said:VFR Class D = Tower sequences everything
Everyone else = Approach handles the sequence
Yet Class D get 0% and everyone else gets complexity bonuses
If you have worked LC at both, you understand. GC is obviously different, but they don't count ground as a complexity factor for some reason
VFR Class D: You cannot have a deal in the airspace
Class B: You can very much have a deal in the airspace whether it be wake turbulence or radar separation
You can have a deal on the runway in both classes so that is a wash. I worked at a Delta for years so I know how difficult LC can be but ‘remain outside delta airspace’ is a thing. Try using that at ORD
nab said:You think class C is separating by 500 feet?
Well. I have worked at a Class C and separated airplanes by 500 feet.
I'm not sure why you have no idea what airplanes are doing when you can assign headings and altitudes. Maybe do that and you'll have less confusion? Idk man. Maybe you're just providing a worse service than the rest of us, doesn't mean that class D deserves class B pay.
Somenewguy said:Well. I have worked at a Class C and separated airplanes by 500 feet.
I'm not sure why you have no idea what airplanes are doing when you can assign headings and altitudes. Maybe do that and you'll have less confusion? Idk man. Maybe you're just providing a worse service than the rest of us, doesn't mean that class D deserves class B pay.
Not only that, you should be de-conflicting all participating traffic in the class C outer area
Do you really think class B is 25% more complex than class D?
Well. I have worked at a Class C and separated airplanes by 500 feet.
Somenewguy said:I'm not sure why you have no idea what airplanes are doing when you can assign headings and altitudes. Maybe do that and you'll have less confusion? Idk man. Maybe you're just providing a worse service than the rest of us, doesn't mean that class D deserves class B pay.
Also how do you assign headings and altitudes to airplanes you’re not talking to.
KP-ATC said:Not only that, you should be de-conflicting all participating traffic in the class C outer area
nab said:Do you really think class B is 25% more complex than class D?
Well. I have worked at a Class C and separated airplanes by 500 feet.
rhombus said:VFR Class D: You cannot have a deal in the airspace
Class B: You can very much have a deal in the airspace whether it be wake turbulence or radar separation
You can have a deal on the runway in both classes so that is a wash. I worked at a Delta for years so I know how difficult LC can be but ‘remain outside delta airspace’ is a thing. Try using that at ORD
There are multiple different factors that make both class B, C, and D difficult. Class D is more "wild west" whereas Class B is more "structured". Class D LC's are doing everything, yet getting the least complexity bump
Somenewguy said:Well. I have worked at a Class C and separated airplanes by 500 feet.
I'm not sure why you have no idea what airplanes are doing when you can assign headings and altitudes. Maybe do that and you'll have less confusion? Idk man. Maybe you're just providing a worse service than the rest of us, doesn't mean that class D deserves class B pay.
I mean any plane that has tcas is highly likely to get an RA if you use 500ft. And it's not about the plane you're talking to but the random vfrs that are attracted to fucking around right around the arrivals at altitude and randomly climb into arrivals when you look away for a second
S.T.O.P. said:There are multiple different factors that make both class B, C, and D difficult. Class D is more "wild west" whereas Class B is more "structured". Class D LC's are doing everything, yet getting the least complexity bump
Super busy Deltas are pretty complex running busy patterns all day for sure. But yeah it's wild West cause you don't have to provide separation essentially other than runway sep
CoffeeIV said:600 op day at a vfr tower is easy as shit compared to a 600 op day at a Core 30.
I've done D, C, and B. I'd argue the C was harder on local than the B due to increased pattern work and vectoring. But the D even on the 600+ summer day was a joke. Those that don't agree are probably at Ds.
Inb4 the one or two cherry picked class D's that have like 300k ops a year are used as arguments for all deltas.
It’s not the 600 days it’s the 1200-1400 that are random and you just get absolutely rocked. I don’t think D are as hard but there is only one local controller sequencing and watching runway separation all at the same time. Where C and B everything is pretty set up for the most part so I completely understand the debate 🤷🏻♂️
CoffeeIV said:Cool Falcon Field can just does parallel pattern work and double the count easily to a single runway. Everyone can make wherever they worked sound busy. It's a delta with no real requirements other than don't scrape paint. How many jets are these people working into the mix? Little to none. Just a bunch of Cessnas following each other at 90kts. Not hard.
Should just close all contract towers down instead of the socialism going on. Private citizens paying for rich people to have a playground.
Lol I work right down the road at a contract facility and there’s more jets than I asked for ill say that…again it’s not hard until 1400 come at you and it’s constant checking in from everywhere dodging busses….its like working approach and tower combined in a 5 mile radius. All those airplanes still have to be sequenced they aren’t just on a line.
End of the day I could care less just give me a livable damn wage for the city I work in…you can call it complexity a handout or whatever just give me my moneeeey.
CoffeeIV said:Should just close all contract towers down instead of the socialism going on. Private citizens paying for rich people to have a playground.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with that, but I also feel like most of those super busy vfr airports are running mainly pilot training programs. Those people then go on to be the corporate or airline pilots. So you can view it as an investment in the economy too. I don't think a lot of rich people are just flying their plane around in a pattern endlessly but idk
CoffeeIV said:DVT has no jets and was over 1400 once this past month. Usually a lot less. It's the busiest GA airport.
You guys hype these places up too much.
CoffeeIV said:Sounds like corporate bailout to me. But we'll move the goalposts for the rich and act like it helps the economy.
Im just curious have you worked a busy delta or nah?
CoffeeIV said:You got me. Missed it tucked in there with all the props.
Do KIWA next
CoffeeIV said:No matter what I say you're going to say since I didn't work at a place running 1400 ops to parallel runways with 99% aircraft going sub 120kts it doesn't matter.
Are you pro socialism or against it?
Brother I make 37 an hr with shit benefits working probably double what you do I don’t think it’s socialism to want fair pay and to afford a house 🤷🏻♂️
CoffeeIV said:Redfin shows over 150 houses under 150k with 3 bedroom 2 bath in the Phoenix area.
If you can't afford that then I don't know what to say. A lot of you don't tell the full story. Divorces and whatever else.
You might be brain dead or never been to a big city or living 20yrs in the past. If you think you’re finding something for 150k anywhere near the tower in the PHX area I can’t even have a conversation with you. Average house that’s near are 400-450 and that’s probably still a 30min drive. I shouldn’t have to live in the ghetto as an air traffic controller. I honestly think you’re trolling at this point I respect it and ima let you do your thing.
Used to work a busy D, not one of the top crazy busy ones but it was definitely harder than what I do now. LUAW…cleared…LUAW…cleared, all day with professional pilots. However I am at a country club 10.
BDUB said:You might be brain dead or never been to a big city or living 20yrs in the past. If you think you’re finding something for 150k anywhere near the tower in the PHX area I can’t even have a conversation with you. Average house that’s near are 400-450 and that’s probably still a 30min drive. I shouldn’t have to live in the ghetto as an air traffic controller. I honestly think you’re trolling at this point I respect it and ima let you do your thing.
I don't really agree with you but it's whatever. Sure you deserve a raise. A rising tide lifts all boats.
CoffeeIV said:DVT has no jets and was over 1400 once this past month. Usually a lot less. It's the busiest GA airport.
I see at least three things wrong with those sentences. If you’re truly using Flightaware to get your info, I’m not surprised you think that way. ATADS and the TCI tell a much different story.
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