Logging a Complaint Against an Instructor - Expectation vs Reality

Messages
5
First off worry about number one.

Secondly, making complaints at the academy of instructors is a good way to make your own life much harder. Not smart.

Hell even when you get out in the real world....not a good idea to complain about your training team when you are still wet behind the ears. Got a few years in, been thru the song and dance a couple times, training at facility number 3 or whatever? Okay cool now I think you are in a position to have a say. Certainly not now when you don't know what's required or normal for training in this job, and what's out of line.

When you are job jeopardy with zero union protection and still in probationary status is not the time to be making demands of the FAA. I think you'd be playing with fire for little or no gain by raising your voice about this.

Aviation is too small of a field to start make complaints and pissing people off before even getting hired. Don't make it worse on yourself. In the words from some of my trainers (school and contract) "Suck it up Buttercup"

Noted. Thank you!
 

slim

Trusted Contributor
Messages
239
In this field, it’s either you got it or you don’t(I’ve seen people in active training, no delays, for over 5 years which is not ok). Sadly, sounds like your classmate ain’t grasping onto the ideas quick enough and prolly won’t make it.
 

hoody

Active Member
Messages
56
Hello pointsixtyfive.

Not a first-timer here, but I have created this account to preserve my anonymity for what are hopefully obvious reasons.

I am currently attending classes at MMAC. As one might expect, the material has gotten substantially more difficult with each passing week. While I've encountered some difficulties in my studies, I personally have not struggled with any of the material for a prolonged period, however, I am noticing that some of my classmates are, and I don't think it's for reasons related to study habits or talent. One classmate of mine is very studious, but they seem to leave their capabilities at the classroom door. I don't think it's a coincidence that our lead seems to be very particularly, loudly, and downright obnoxiously critical of them, almost as if to publicly shame them. Unsurprisingly, I have watched this individual's morale deteriorate over the weeks. No doubt they are having a tough time with the material, but the repeated abuse they endure in the classroom has to be deterring their ability to effectively learn and practice while on campus.

I have received a somewhat similar, albeit less severe and less frequent treatment from our lead, and for whatever reason, it's only incentivized me to understand the material. I can even see the potential value in "simulating" the pressure of the evaluations in the classroom environment, however, I also feel like the classroom and the lab are places for learning primarily, and our instructor's inability to provide a more dynamic style of instruction is obviously adversely affecting some students' ability to do so. I can handle the abuse, and might even appreciate it at times, but it's clear to me that our lead doesn't have any desire to accommodate learning styles that might suffer under his current methods.

I know our lead can flip the switch. He does so for a female student, which I don't think is a coincidence. I just get the sense, generally, that he'd rather be snide and condescending than informative, especially should you have any sort of clarifying question. Long story short, I am thinking of filing a complaint. I am not sure how often this sort of thing happens at MMAC, or what sort of recourse I can expect through a formal complaint process. I think some of my classmates would agree with my assessment and cooperate, however, I'd like to know if anyone has had any experience doing such a thing and could clarify. My obvious fear is that something will be said to our instructor, but that nothing beyond that will happen, and that may come with some sort of retaliation.

Feel free to PM your responses. Any input would be appreciated.
You don't know what abuse is, you sissy. Harden up accordingly.
 

Billybob

Forum Sage
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
FAA
Messages
865
Facility
ZLA Los Angeles Center
Hello pointsixtyfive.

Not a first-timer here, but I have created this account to preserve my anonymity for what are hopefully obvious reasons.
Obviously you don't have a backbone

I am currently attending classes at MMAC. As one might expect, the material has gotten substantially more difficult with each passing week. While I've encountered some difficulties in my studies, I personally have not struggled with any of the material for a prolonged period,
Famous last words lmao
however, I am noticing that some of my classmates are, and I don't think it's for reasons related to study habits or talent.
No, it definitely is
One classmate of mine is very studious, but they seem to leave their capabilities at the classroom door. I don't think it's a coincidence that our lead seems to be very particularly, loudly, and downright obnoxiously critical of them, almost as if to publicly shame them.
Hopefully they don't leave their ATC capabilities at the door. Your lead probably sees some potential in this person and is pushing them to do better. Good lead.
Unsurprisingly, I have watched this individual's morale deteriorate over the weeks. No doubt they are having a tough time with the material, but the repeated abuse they endure in the classroom has to be deterring their ability to effectively learn and practice while on campus.
the 'M' in FAA stands for 'Morale'. Act accordingly. Also you said they are very studious but struggle with the material? If they are studying as intently as you claim and are still struggling as mightily as you said, then they ain't gonna make it, sorry bud.
I have received a somewhat similar, albeit less severe and less frequent treatment from our lead, and for whatever reason, it's only incentivized me to understand the material.
This is the best response to have, congratulations
I can even see the potential value in "simulating" the pressure of the evaluations in the classroom environment, however, I also feel like the classroom and the lab are places for learning primarily, and our instructor's inability to provide a more dynamic style of instruction is obviously adversely affecting some students' ability to do so.
Your instructor is not there to hold your hand. This isn't George Bush's "No Child Left Behind" academy. If you don't get it then tough shit. You get one shot for this career. Here is a free life lesson and something very important you need to learn: Life isn't fair. Nobody gives two flying fucks about how you get to where you are, they only care that you're there. You aren't going to magically have a conversation with your instructor filled with constructive criticism that's going to make him be a better instructor in the time that you are there.
I can handle the abuse, and might even appreciate it at times, but it's clear to me that our lead doesn't have any desire to accommodate learning styles that might suffer under his current methods.
Your job is to put what is taught into a learning style you will understand. The FAA and the instructor do not have the time or patience to teach concepts in a tri-fold style that suits everybody's needs. Refer to the paragraph above: Life isn't fair.
I know our lead can flip the switch. He does so for a female student, which I don't think is a coincidence. I just get the sense, generally, that he'd rather be snide and condescending than informative, especially should you have any sort of clarifying question.
This is a very rare case of when you should be thankful for the instructors ALLEGED sexism. He is doing you a service by being hard on you versus the female student. By your own admission in line 2 of your rant you said you are not struggling with the material. If he is being hard on you and your classmates by making you feel like dumbasses for asking stupid questions, well, it's because your class is full of dumbasses with stupid questions. That's not a slight against you or your classmates: You are dumbasses with stupid questions. That's why you're at the academy. Try to get as much stupid out as you can now and get used to the response because you only get dumber the further you go into training.
Long story short, I am thinking of filing a complaint.
High risk, no reward. Reference to the above: life isn't fair. Regardless of what the media says, your desire for social justice will go nowhere and isn't worth the time to put a target on your back to "constructively criticize" somebody you won't ever see again after two months.
I am not sure how often this sort of thing happens at MMAC, or what sort of recourse I can expect through a formal complaint process. I think some of my classmates would agree with my assessment and cooperate,
Not often because most people understand that it's a high risk low reward idea. If you think some of your classmates would agree and you yourself are not struggling with the material, let them do it. Don't be the first out of the trenches, don't die on a hill you have nothing to do with so your classmates can step on you to claim it. They won't give two shits about you when you wash out.
however, I'd like to know if anyone has had any experience doing such a thing and could clarify. My obvious fear is that something will be said to our instructor,
"Hey our instructor sucks and I want to file a complaint about his abuse and teaching practices but I totally don't want it to reach him." Disregard everything I've said. Stand up to him in class. Literally stand on your desk and tell him off. Your classmates will totally 'O captain my captain!' you.
but that nothing beyond that will happen, and that may come with some sort of retaliation.
No shit Sherlock
 

ZO

Active Member
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
106
Obviously you don't have a backbone


Famous last words lmao

No, it definitely is

Hopefully they don't leave their ATC capabilities at the door. Your lead probably sees some potential in this person and is pushing them to do better. Good lead.

the 'M' in FAA stands for 'Morale'. Act accordingly. Also you said they are very studious but struggle with the material? If they are studying as intently as you claim and are still struggling as mightily as you said, then they ain't gonna make it, sorry bud.

This is the best response to have, congratulations

Your instructor is not there to hold your hand. This isn't George Bush's "No Child Left Behind" academy. If you don't get it then tough shit. You get one shot for this career. Here is a free life lesson and something very important you need to learn: Life isn't fair. Nobody gives two flying fucks about how you get to where you are, they only care that you're there. You aren't going to magically have a conversation with your instructor filled with constructive criticism that's going to make him be a better instructor in the time that you are there.

Your job is to put what is taught into a learning style you will understand. The FAA and the instructor do not have the time or patience to teach concepts in a tri-fold style that suits everybody's needs. Refer to the paragraph above: Life isn't fair.

This is a very rare case of when you should be thankful for the instructors ALLEGED sexism. He is doing you a service by being hard on you versus the female student. By your own admission in line 2 of your rant you said you are not struggling with the material. If he is being hard on you and your classmates by making you feel like dumbasses for asking stupid questions, well, it's because your class is full of dumbasses with stupid questions. That's not a slight against you or your classmates: You are dumbasses with stupid questions. That's why you're at the academy. Try to get as much stupid out as you can now and get used to the response because you only get dumber the further you go into training.

High risk, no reward. Reference to the above: life isn't fair. Regardless of what the media says, your desire for social justice will go nowhere and isn't worth the time to put a target on your back to "constructively criticize" somebody you won't ever see again after two months.

Not often because most people understand that it's a high risk low reward idea. If you think some of your classmates would agree and you yourself are not struggling with the material, let them do it. Don't be the first out of the trenches, don't die on a hill you have nothing to do with so your classmates can step on you to claim it. They won't give two shits about you when you wash out.

"Hey our instructor sucks and I want to file a complaint about his abuse and teaching practices but I totally don't want it to reach him." Disregard everything I've said. Stand up to him in class. Literally stand on your desk and tell him off. Your classmates will totally 'O captain my captain!' you.

No shit Sherlock
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
 

Jake Sully

Member
Messages
6
Peoples replies are one of my exact issues with this job. Take the abuse so you can be tougher and get ready for a “real facility” This isn’t the military. Fuck that shit… the academy instructors are some of the most arrogant pricks I’ve ever encountered… fuck em…
 

AB19

Forum Sage
Messages
1,597
Do the right thing, if you think the right is to report your instructor, do it. If you think the right thing is to say nothing, do that. If you think the best course of action is to talk to them privately, do that. I do think that neither the FAA, or that instructor will care much about what you have to say, whether the berating that you claim is abuse, is not up for anyone other than your classmates to decide. I’m sorry that the majority of people telling you to suck it up, your trainers will be worse, are also the same type of people that make the only part of the job that sucks for me.
 

ATOH

Trusted Contributor
Messages
140
I know our lead can flip the switch. He does so for a female student, which I don't think is a coincidence.

Welcome to the FAA.

Seriously dude just suck it up and worry about yourself. You will likely never see anyone from your class (unless you go to the same facility) and your instructors ever again.
 

CoffeeIV

Trusted Contributor
Messages
118
Peoples replies are one of my exact issues with this job. Take the abuse so you can be tougher and get ready for a “real facility” This isn’t the military. Fuck that shit… the academy instructors are some of the most arrogant pricks I’ve ever encountered… fuck em…

Yeah most OJTI's in the FAA arent that bad at all. There are a few here and there that might be a bit harsh but I found it worst in the military. I had to go to RTF and some of the instructors were just brutal. I got lucky and my instructors both had leave or something and we got two new ones that were far better and actually taught rather than belittle every little thing we did.
 

ATOH

Trusted Contributor
Messages
140
Yeah most OJTI's in the FAA arent that bad at all. There are a few here and there that might be a bit harsh but I found it worst in the military. I had to go to RTF and some of the instructors were just brutal. I got lucky and my instructors both had leave or something and we got two new ones that were far better and actually taught rather than belittle every little thing we did.

Oh man some of those RTF lab instructors were some of the most crotchety chain-smoking fucks I've met in this job.

I remember having the guy who tried to essentially have you do calculus to figure out compression on final and got angry if you didn't use his method.
 

kemeky

Member
Messages
8
Oh man some of those RTF lab instructors were some of the most crotchety chain-smoking fucks I've met in this job.

I remember having the guy who tried to essentially have you do calculus to figure out compression on final and got angry if you didn't use his method.
Was his last name Smith?
 

ATOH

Trusted Contributor
Messages
140
Was his last name Smith?
It was 8-9 years ago I don't remember. My other favorite was the guy who would start each problem by saying "Okay, I'm just going to sit back and let you work and not give any input", then 30 seconds into the problem starts telling me every transmission to make and then would get upset when I would try something else. Oh and of course one of my partners was a good looking chick who he treated completely different, to keep with the theme of this thread.
 

Jake Sully

Member
Messages
6
I was prior military and honestly there’s no comparison in my opinion. These controllers aren’t out here being tough so you’re prepared for war. It’s a lot of entitled arrogant assholes who have a superiority complex and take it out on trainees … many of which are veterans, parents, full grown adults who deserve respect in the workplace. People are just trying to make a living. The big badass air traffic controllers are just so cool though so they have to let you know that if you haven’t certified yet you’re less of a person. If you can’t take getting screamed at and called names at work each day we’ll I guess you shouldn’t be a controller….. that’s the toxic culture we work in… and if you notice while in the academy you’re told to shut up and take it or else you don’t have what it takes…. It’s laughable and ppl should wake up. It’s not normal and you can be a good controller and not be a complete piece of shit. You can also be a good controller and not accept being mistreated at work just because you’re trying to learn a new job and you’re not as good as the guy who has been there 15 years.
 

CoffeeIV

Trusted Contributor
Messages
118
Oh man some of those RTF lab instructors were some of the most crotchety chain-smoking fucks I've met in this job.

I remember having the guy who tried to essentially have you do calculus to figure out compression on final and got angry if you didn't use his method.

I had a trainer like that, maybe he got trained by that dude and now that's how he does it lol. I found RTF enjoyable once I got the new set of instructors. Though one of them made fun of me because according to him I loved doing the problem the hard way.

Unfortunately I just don't think a lot of people take that job unless they made some poor financial decisions and couldn't live off their retirement. I could be way off base on that but it just seemed that way from a couple of the instructors. Always reliving their glory days.
 

Peter Gibbons

Legendary Member
Messages
2,069
I was prior military and honestly there’s no comparison in my opinion. These controllers aren’t out here being tough so you’re prepared for war. It’s a lot of entitled arrogant assholes who have a superiority complex and take it out on trainees … many of which are veterans, parents, full grown adults who deserve respect in the workplace. People are just trying to make a living. The big badass air traffic controllers are just so cool though so they have to let you know that if you haven’t certified yet you’re less of a person. If you can’t take getting screamed at and called names at work each day we’ll I guess you shouldn’t be a controller….. that’s the toxic culture we work in… and if you notice while in the academy you’re told to shut up and take it or else you don’t have what it takes…. It’s laughable and ppl should wake up. It’s not normal and you can be a good controller and not be a complete piece of shit. You can also be a good controller and not accept being mistreated at work just because you’re trying to learn a new job and you’re not as good as the guy who has been there 15 years.
You aren't wrong at all, I've had bad instructors and trainers in this career, same as anyone else, a big part of that is the same "personality types" that make good controllers don't always make good teachers, and the FAA does a bad job of teaching people to teach.

That said there's being an arrogant prick, and there's trying to instruct in a time sensitive, stressful environment and the line between the two can be a little gray at times.

Trust me I'm all for changing the shit training culture in the FAA but this dude in the academy isn't the dude to lead the charge on that and is just gonna make his life actively harder by doing so, and at a point in his fledgling career where he has zero protections against retaliation by the alleged prick instructor.
 

Hal9000

Member
Messages
40
When I entered OJT, my instructor slapped me in the face an knocked my headset off the first transmission. I instantly knew she was cool, if a bit feisty. Back that was almost a decade ago, in the days of olde, when the knights were bolde, and the scribes apparently had too many leftover Es.

Best bet is to ignore the person being a jerk.
 
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