Last 20 years: "visual seperation approved", conflict unfucked.
January 29th, 2025: "visual seperation approved" -- 'what an idiot that controller was. He didn't do nearly enough. I bet DEI was involved. Let's get em!'
But that's the problem. It wasn't "unfucked" when the helo pilot was doing/or stopped doing something different then what was agreed. When that happens or isn't happening soon enough, we (ATC) have to intervene - SEPARATE...again, and again, and again.
The helo pilot never maneuvered (changed course/altitude/hovered) to separate itself from the CRJ it just kept going right towards it.
Watching that replay, it’s nuts to me that a safety alert wasn’t issued. Yes, PAT25 was instructed to pass behind JIA5342, and read it back, but does it look like they’ll do that on that screen?
Part of the job is to issue safety alerts when planes don’t do what they’re supposed to do, and recognize when that time is.
I guess I just don’t understand the attitude of “the controller got the readback, there’s nothing more they could have/should have done.”
I have an odd feeling the controller was a little saturated by the speed of his transmissions. Traffic for 1 is....
"JIA5342 traffic 2 o'clock and 2 miles, helicopter opposite direction has you in sight, change to runway 33, runway 33 clear to land." Was traffic given to 5342? Because the helicopter clearly didn't see the traffic or lost sight.
It doesn't negate things, but I get that strange feeling we've all had working traffic. The urge to push tin while walking the line of making necessary transmissions and safety. I feel for everyone involved.
I guess I just don’t understand the attitude of “the controller got the readback, there’s nothing more they could have/should have done.”
It's only in hindsight.
I don't know the exact workload here, but I'm confident that the comments about what they should have done additionally would be coming whether the controller had nothing else to do or 100 other things to do.
As a generality, if a pilot tells me they'll pass behind another plane, I'm fine turning to my coworker to continue a conversation we were having. If the pilot mistook a star for the plane they were supposed to pass behind, doesn't mean I won't feel guilt, but I'd at least hope my own coworkers wouldn't join the public in giving me lashings.
Unless we're now on board banning conversation in the cab.
Sorry, that reply was supposed to go to someone else. But to answer your question, I haven’t been to the academy in a very long time. But the product I see coming out, I do think it’s easier at the academy now
I don't know the exact workload here, but I'm confident that the comments about what they should have done additionally would be coming whether the controller had nothing else to do or 100 other things to do.
As a generality, if a pilot tells me they'll pass behind another plane, I'm fine turning to my coworker to continue a conversation we were having. If the pilot mistook a star for the plane they were supposed to pass behind, doesn't mean I won't feel guilt, but I'd at least hope my own coworkers wouldn't join the public in giving me lashings.
Unless we're now on board banning conversation in the cab.
Well instead of feeling guilty, what if you continued the conversation while watching your traffic to ensure it passes behind? That way if, that doesn't happen you can use your best judgment to provide additional control instructions to separate.
Sorry, that reply was supposed to go to someone else. But to answer your question, I haven’t been to the academy in a very long time. But the product I see coming out, I do think it’s easier at the academy now
I think the academy has always just been relative. The top 50ish percent just make it and it ebbs and flows with the ability of the whole group
Well instead of feeling guilty, what if you continued the conversation while watching your traffic to ensure it passes behind? That way if, that doesn't happen you can use your best judgment to provide additional control instructions to separate.
Or just ban VFR from the Class Bravo since all the backseat controllers are implying pilot applied visual separation isn't 7110.65 approved.
As a generality, if a pilot tells me they'll pass behind another plane, I'm fine turning to my coworker to continue a conversation we were having. If the pilot mistook a star for the plane they were supposed to pass behind, doesn't mean I won't feel guilt, but I'd at least hope my own coworkers wouldn't join the public in giving me lashings.
As someone else just mentioned before me, I guess that’s where you and I differ: I don’t stop my scan when I get a good readback on something, I continue the scan to ensure that what was supposed to happen, happens, and then intervene with a safety alert if it doesn’t.
I would never accept a trainee getting a good readback, stopping their scan, then justifying not intervening when an aircraft doesn’t do what they’re supposed to do with “Hey, I got a good readback.” That’s unacceptable.
Or just ban VFR from the Class Bravo since all the backseat controllers are implying pilot applied visual separation isn't 7110.65 approved.
Nobody is saying visual separation isn't approved. Use it. I use it all the time. But I contentiously make sure the traffic is remaining, in fact, separated.
They do have Certified STARS scopes in the tower in core airports as well as many others. Class C & B. They're not as big as a scope. More like 16x16 but they are the same feeds and tower controllers use them a lot. They also CA CA.
Last 20 years: "visual seperation approved", conflict unfucked.
January 29th, 2025: "visual seperation approved" -- 'what an idiot that controller was. He didn't do nearly enough. I bet DEI was involved. Let's get em!'
Damn it! Why won't it read!?
11 days ago I'd have agreed with this sentiment. But now I'd say we have to choose between fighting fire with fire or letting ourselves burn.
