Military leave vs other leave requests

[exoskeleton]

Can someone point me in the right direction to how military leave should be handled with reference to NPTL/spot leave requests? For example if Controller A’s NPTL or spot leave would’ve normally been approved and then later Controller B puts in a military leave request, is the other Controller A screwed? Or should the leave be approved, as well as military leave, and then use OT to cover the military leave?

I get that reserve service is protected by the government and is important for the country but I just want reference to show to people at my facility.

Article 26 section 4 says ‘Employees shall be entitled to military leave as set forth in 5 USC 6323.’

 

[PushingTin]

Can someone point me in the right direction to how military leave should be handled with reference to NPTL/spot leave requests? For example if Controller A’s NPTL or spot leave would’ve normally been approved and then later Controller B puts in a military leave request, is the other Controller A screwed? Or should the leave be approved, as well as military leave, and then use OT to cover the military leave?

I get that reserve service is protected by the government and is important for the country but I just want reference to show to people at my facility.

Article 26 section 4 says ‘Employees shall be entitled to military leave as set forth in 5 USC 6323.’

the military leave is obviously guarunteed by law, without respect to priority or what order it came in. IMO, if you are addressing the requests in a timely manner (the 2 hour rule) it shouldn't be much of an issue. IE, approve the spot leave ASAP, then if someone requests military leave they are entitled to, OT must be called in to fill it. Also, can't the person who needs the military leave work w everyone to ensure the most favorable outcome? Especially since they're guarunteed the leave anyway. I think in a case where the Military leave was last, it still gets approved and the first request "that would normally get approved" would be denied. When ppl put in a leave request they should be bringing it to someones attention to address it ASAP, thats in everyones best interest. If you're good you can maybe get the ATM to approve both and do OT either way lol. It does say "leave requests shall be approved in the order they were requested", but I don't think this means they both must be approved if the annual was first?

 

[exoskeleton]

the military leave is obviously guarunteed by law, without respect to priority or what order it came in. IMO, if you are addressing the requests in a timely manner (the 2 hour rule) it shouldn't be much of an issue. IE, approve the spot leave ASAP, then if someone requests military leave they are entitled to, OT must be called in to fill it. Also, can't the person who needs the military leave work w everyone to ensure the most favorable outcome? Especially since they're guarunteed the leave anyway. I think in a case where the Military leave was last, it still gets approved and the first request "that would normally get approved" would be denied. When ppl put in a leave request they should be bringing it to someones attention to address it ASAP, thats in everyones best interest. If you're good you can maybe get the ATM to approve both and do OT either way lol. It does say "leave requests shall be approved in the order they were requested", but I don't think this means they both must be approved if the annual was first?


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Both requests were made more than 30 days before the schedule was posted. The schedule was posted with the military leave approved and various other controller’s spot leave denied on multiple days even though their requests were in WMT months before the military leave was put in. Unfortunately their is no consideration of when to take military leave and there have been accusations of reservervists using military leave to avoid working their mid shifts.

 

[PushingTin]

Both requests were made more than 30 days before the schedule was posted. The schedule was posted with the military leave approved and various other controller’s spot leave denied on multiple days even though their requests were in WMT months before the military leave was put in. Unfortunately their is no consideration of when to take military leave and there have been accusations of reservervists using military leave to avoid working their mid shifts.

Ahhh. If its pre-publishing then I think there's nothing you can do either way. If you have someone manipulating military leave that way that's really shitty and won't make them many friends... But that military card is a strong one to play. Even when it's being used to scam out of mids. Trying to block scammers is very hard and usually illegal, cuz the rules aren't setup to restrict the manipulators, rather I think they generally assume everyone acts in good faith.

 

[MJ]

Unfortunately their is no consideration of when to take military leave and there have been accusations of reservervists using military leave to avoid working their mid shifts.

That’s not how it works. There has to be documentation for the leave, you can’t just wake up and decide to take military leave that day.

 

[StealthChain]

That’s not how it works. There has to be documentation for the leave, you can’t just wake up and decide to take military leave that day.

I think what may be happening, if they are, in fact, trying to miss certain days, is reschedule their training for said days and not go on their normal drill days. This would allow them to not go on the weekend their unit drills and they choose what days they actually go. This is all assuming the days they want to miss are weekdays.

There would be documentation, but it isn't hard to do.

 

[PushingTin]

I think what may be happening, if they are, in fact, trying to miss certain days, is reschedule their training for said days and not go on their normal drill days. This would allow them to not go on the weekend their unit drills and they choose what days they actually go. This is all assuming the days they want to miss are weekdays.

There would be documentation, but it isn't hard to do.

Yeah. Would be super easy to just ask your First Seargant or Commander to write you a note or documentation to reflect your desired days. No ATM is gonna give any push back to that. Its more untouchable than even the scam lactation stations every time busy traffic hits!

 

[rugbydog11]

Mil leave is kinda a double edged sword... It's supposed to be used just for AFT, but there are mandatory drill weekends too. The broad brush of mil leave works so well for normal mon-fri govt workers who live near their reserve duty, and can hit every drill but it gets real tough when you have a two day Mandatory and you have a 10 hour drive and have Tues/Weds off.
Now, I'm not saying your folk ain't scammers, but they know when they truly need off... They can wait til the schedule is publishes or two weeks out to put in their mil leave to help their co-workers.

 

[YouAppearToBeOnFire]

Mil leave is kinda a double edged sword... It's supposed to be used just for AFT, but there are mandatory drill weekends too. The broad brush of mil leave works so well for normal mon-fri govt workers who live near their reserve duty, and can hit every drill but it gets real tough when you have a two day Mandatory and you have a 10 hour drive and have Tues/Weds off.
Now, I'm not saying your folk ain't scammers, but they know when they truly need off... They can wait til the schedule is publishes or two weeks out to put in their mil leave to help their co-workers.

Actually if you read the law per USERRA. Your employer has to give you time off 8 hours PRIOR to the travel to your duty location.

So say you report on a Tuesday at 0730. If it's a 10 hour drive then they would have to build in at least 18 hours prior to that shift start IAW the law.

 

[exoskeleton]

That’s not how it works. There has to be documentation for the leave, you can’t just wake up and decide to take military leave that day.

I’m not saying people are making last minite military leave requests. I’m saying that they take their military leave every or almost every time they will be scheduled on a mid shift. That can’t be a coincidence but what do I know as a civilian.

 

[StealthChain]

Yeah. Would be super easy to just ask your First Seargant or Commander to write you a note or documentation to reflect your desired days. No ATM is gonna give any push back to that. Its more untouchable than even the scam lactation stations every time busy traffic hits!

I'm solely speaking as a Reservist and not even at the academy yet, but I don't think it would be unreasonable for an ATM to require a signed RST form (commander's signature) stating the training they are doing has been scheduled AND approved. If it really is a scamming issue then I wouldn't know of any recourse that could happen as they are covered by the law, but maybe they could be scheduled more mid's than others who are not skipping out on those shifts.

 

[PushingTin]

I'm solely speaking as a Reservist and not even at the academy yet, but I don't think it would be unreasonable for an ATM to require a signed RST form (commander's signature) stating the training they are doing has been scheduled AND approved. If it really is a scamming issue then I wouldn't know of any recourse that could happen as they are covered by the law, but maybe they could be scheduled more mid's than others who are not skipping out on those shifts.

Oh i totally agree w you. Def not "unreasonable" in theory. I just think in reality its one of those 3rd rails that they tend not to dig too deeply into ya know. The tie goes to the runner lol. There are several cases of FAA controllers who are still on the senioirty list and count for staffing, but havent been to the facility in WELL over a year... because they solely chose to take a training pilot assignment somewhere or deploy, etc. The facilities are fairly powerless. And I think that for the most part the units will generally provide whatever documentation the troop wants or needs. Imagine a call to a Congressman from a deployed Captain saying his Federal facility is messing w his service?? #MilitaryCard played is like 4 of a kind. A royal or str8 flush can still beat it, but you aint getting dealt that lol

 

[StealthChain]

Oh i totally agree w you. Def not "unreasonable" in theory. I just think in reality its one of those 3rd rails that they tend not to dig too deeply into ya know. The tie goes to the runner lol. There are several cases of FAA controllers who are still on the senioirty list and count for staffing, but havent been to the facility in WELL over a year... because they solely chose to take a training pilot assignment somewhere or deploy, etc. The facilities are fairly powerless. And I think that for the most part the units will generally provide whatever documentation the troop wants or needs. Imagine a call to a Congressman from a deployed Captain saying his Federal facility is messing w his service?? #MilitaryCard played is like 4 of a kind. A royal or str8 flush can still beat it, but you aint getting dealt that lol

I'm no captain, but maybe I should reenlist and carry my next contract out to retirement haha. I'm sure people wouldn't hate me for being a new guy taking all a bunch of military leave to go do training.

 

[PushingTin]

I'm no captain, but maybe I should reenlist and carry my next contract out to retirement haha. I'm sure people wouldn't hate me for being a new guy taking all a bunch of military leave to go do training.

Lol one of the only caveats to this i'd say is.... if you're actually a Guard air traffic controller (what is there like 7 or 8 guard ATC units?), its likely some of your FAA trainers will also be NCOs at that same guard base and therefore know all the scams

 

[StealthChain]

Lol one of the only caveats to this i'd say is.... if you're actually a Guard air traffic controller (what is there like 7 or 8 guard ATC units?), its likely some of your FAA trainers will also be NCOs at that same guard base and therefore know all the scams

Not ATC so I'll be safe. I'd want to find the closest unit to whatever facility I would be at though. Not trying to travel for that shit

 

[YouAppearToBeOnFire]

Additionally, I have no clue what level facility anyone is at. (I'm in the NG waiting on OKC in tier 2 but also a fed civilian tech).

However, whoever stays in the military to avoid working as a CPC.... is a total moron. Everyone knows the military is a mind numbing abyss.

Meanwhile, as a CPC at a center you're talking about losing out on good $$$. You only get 120 hours of mil leave a year to use. The rest is either LWOP or you're stuck burning LA or LS. Why on gods green earth would anyone do that? Not to mention risking getting deployed to a shit show in the middle east where you turn over rocks so they tan evenly.

By the way, military leave will always be granted. Per USERRA the only obligation the service member technically has is to notify their employer as soon as they find out about military duties that conflict with scheduled work hours. However, it is dutiful the service member provide their drill schedule (which all units should have 120 days prior to the start of the new fiscal year). This allows for management to adequately take care of staffing. Furthermore, when changes occur the employer cannot deny the service member their military leave. Nor can they by law make you fill out a request form, use vacation or sick time for when you leave.

I will say that if you're running into issues to contact ESGR, union reps, etc and get clarification and have them work with your management team. Typically, even prior service, are unaware of the laws when it comes to military service members.

(I'm not exactly an expert. I've just been through every single thing mentioned above and had to fight with civilian employers.)

 

[CK]

I'd treat Military like sick leave. If NPTL was put in and not approved, that alone is one issue. NPTL entered in after the bidding process shall be approved or denied ASAP. If denied but later found they have staffing may be approved above spot leave. So it should have ready been approved than approve Military and call in OT.

If it's Spot leave. "requested during the posted watch schedule or with in your local buffer of when it goes NPTL to Spot" than spot gets denied and Mil approved. Gatta be quick with those approvals man.

 

[exoskeleton]

I'd treat Military like sick leave. If NPTL was put in and not approved, that alone is one issue. NPTL entered in after the bidding process shall be approved or denied ASAP. If denied but later found they have staffing may be approved above spot leave. So it should have ready been approved than approve Military and call in OT.

If it's Spot leave. "requested during the posted watch schedule or with in your local buffer of when it goes NPTL to Spot" than spot gets denied and Mil approved. Gatta be quick with those approvals man.

I dont know the intricacies of NPTL but for instance there was only one PTL slot for a given day and someone already bid it so it’s gone. So then after bidding was over, but several months before the schedule for the pay period was publish, people put in leave requests. It’s not spot leave because it was more than 30 days before publishing but it’s not really a NPTL slot for those days either because only negotiated one pre-approved leave slot for those days. Idk I’m not a guru with all the leave and stuff, it just doesn’t seem right that peoples leave would’ve been approved upon publishing the schedule, but then they get bypassed for military leave request that was put in web schedule much later (but still more than 30 days before publishing). And it just so happens that those military leave requests always coincide with mid shifts. Ok rant over, it’s a lost cause.

 

[32andBelow]

The tricky part is when they are a reserve pilot or something like that. Those guys can get training missions literally whenever they want.

 

[KevH]

Until the schedule is posted, ordinary leave is going to take a back seat to things like FMLA leave, military leave, etc. even if those requests were put in after the ordinary leave request but before schedule posting. Sooner the schedule can be posted the better, as spot leave approved then will require management to call in OT to cover any other leave requests that are mandatory to grant. Pretty much already been said, but that’s the way things generally work in both the public and private sector.

Just speaking for the Air side, a lot of units are very flexible with when their members perform drills. Even though it sucks to have leave denied, and could allow a member to drill on shifts they don’t want to work, it’s probably a better situation that the member can mostly perform duty on days of their choosing. If all units mandated all members drill on the established weekends only (which is well within their purview), weekends could be even more difficult to get spot leave for. Also, some jobs like pilots require that the member perform more duty than the usual amount to maintain currency and accomplish other requirements.

The other thing is that military pay, benefits, and allowances are often much better than lower level FAA CPC pay, at least for NCO ranks and above. SNCOs and commissioned officers, especially in high cost of living areas, often do as well or better than high level facility CPCs on a net pay basis. Just personally speaking, that adds a huge incentive to go on military orders. Throw in all the USERRA protections for things like reemployment, retirement, seniority, etc. and it’s like the government is saying we prefer you on military orders than working your civilian government job. Do need to settle down back at home at some point though. What’s a takeoff clearance again: Cleared hot for takeoff?