Shoot The Breeze

[32andBelow]

I had my class date changed three times and delayed almost a year. I changed my wedding date twice to accommodate. I had IWR, while training. Anything else you want to get tit for tat on? It sucks, but deal with it. The quicker you learn that the agency doesn’t care about you as an individual, the better and easier your career will be. The show ALWAYS goes on... At this time, it is a safer for the needs of the agency to minimize risk to losing the ability to provide ATC services due to an outbreak of COVID-19. The union is always going to put safety FIRST and the BUE’s safety trumps training.

LOL the agency. The non union agency members ARE training

 

[mnsalty]

I had my class date changed three times and delayed almost a year. I changed my wedding date twice to accommodate. I had IWR, while training. Anything else you want to get tit for tat on? It sucks, but deal with it. The quicker you learn that the agency doesn’t care about you as an individual, the better and easier your career will be. The show ALWAYS goes on... At this time, it is a safer for the needs of the agency to minimize risk to losing the ability to provide ATC services due to an outbreak of COVID-19. The union is always going to put safety FIRST and the BUE’s safety trumps training.

I assume you're already on mando 6 days at A80, but if you aren't, I hope you are for a very, very long time.

 

[Dontbotherme]

facilities are already going ATC 0 as a result of this. What's the difference? Training is already in the budget. As for traffic being slow, it's gonna be this way for a while (did you miss the part about the pilot furloughs? Pilots fly from that little room in the front of the plane). Either train people on it and let them work up to it or let yourself fall into bigger staffing crisis than you already are in.

Yet, they aren’t losing 100% of their staffing when they go ATC-0! If we went 100% staffing here today and someone got sick at work, the CDC quarantine of 14 days would cripple the Atlanta region in providing ATC services. It is CLEARLY obvious that you haven’t worked traffic volume or complexity! Your whole mindset of “let them work up to it” is the exact same as “certify them in this position to give them some confidence and they’ll get better.” The problem is THEY DON’T MEET THE STANDARD AND GET BETTER! Then, you’re working around their inabilities forever.

 

[CF]

I assume you're already on mando 6 days at A80, but if you aren't, I hope you are for a very, very long time.

Man you really showed him!

 

[mnsalty]

Man you really showed him!

kick rocks

 

[PushingTin]

already seen official memos from the FAA that directly contradict you on the mask issue, so..... i dunno man.

i've heard that the White House absolutely will not allow any agency to MANDATE masks. I also believe that because of that, there will not be training until the virus has been mitigated. I agree w 99% of the things you post i think, but i honestly do not believe you will be training for a very long time. this is my latest opinion after considering and analyzing all of the facts and anecdotes. there is no momentum for training and almost no one (short of message boards like this) even talking about training with any urgency AT ALL.

 

[32andBelow]

Yet, they aren’t losing 100% of their staffing when they go ATC-0! If we went 100% staffing here today and someone got sick at work, the CDC quarantine of 14 days would cripple the Atlanta region in providing ATC services. It is CLEARLY obvious that you haven’t worked traffic volume or complexity! Your whole mindset of “let them work up to it” is the exact same as “certify them in this position to give them some confidence and they’ll get better.” The problem is THEY DON’T MEET THE STANDARD AND GET BETTER! Then, you’re working around their inabilities forever.

You think the quarantine everyone else for 14 days after a positive? Lmao.

 

[mnsalty]

Yet, they aren’t losing 100% of their staffing when they go ATC-0! If we went 100% staffing here today and someone got sick at work, the CDC quarantine of 14 days would cripple the Atlanta region in providing ATC services. It is CLEARLY obvious that you haven’t worked traffic volume or complexity! Your whole mindset of “let them work up to it” is the exact same as “certify them in this position to give them some confidence and they’ll get better.” The problem is THEY DON’T MEET THE STANDARD AND GET BETTER! Then, you’re working around their inabilities forever.

delta has straight up said they'll be a smaller airline as a result of this. Your days of working 30 mile finals are probably over for a while. Sorry. Delta will maybe add a few flights every month for months until they build back up to the old normal. By then, even your greatness will have lost your touch a little bit. It's not the same as the sympathy certs that I'm aware of what you're talking about. In fact, if someone can't do the job, I'm all for terminating.

 

[Dontbotherme]

I assume you're already on mando 6 days at A80, but if you aren't, I hope you are for a very, very long time.

The last eight years have been mandatory six day workweeks for volunteers and non volunteers. So you’re not bringing up something new. Hell, the first week I wasn’t assigned OT was the first week of December in 2019! That’s only after management initiated the Make a Wish Foundation and certified almost anyone who was breathing. I’d rather work short, for my entire career, than work with people I can’t trust to do their job.

 

[mnsalty]

i've heard that the White House absolutely will not allow any agency to MANDATE masks. I also believe that because of that, there will not be training until the virus has been mitigated. I agree w 99% of the things you post i think, but i honestly do not believe you will be training for a very long time. this is my latest opinion after considering and analyzing all of the facts and anecdotes. there is no momentum for training and almost no one (short of message boards like this) even talking about training with any urgency AT ALL.

I agree with you. Which is why I think furloughs could happen if natca doesn't stop the political nonsense. instead we have natca over here trying to prevent inevitable airline furloughs by crutching them along for another 6 months and ignoring the growing staffing crisis in the agency and proving to the agency there is a crap ton of dead weight and fat to be trimmed. we saved the airlines for 6 more months but forgot to advocate for the controllers who are replacing all the people who are retiring? I don't get it.

 

[PushingTin]

PT unrelated to your post but I wanted to tag you. NATCA is pushing me to advocate for this HEROES act which includes hazardous pay for ATC and "protects us" can you elaborate? Agree or disagree?

if it has the Hazard Pay provision in it then I believe it is in controllers interest to advocate for it. Most controllers didnt qualify for the first round of stimulus money, nor reap any of the benefits of the corrupt Paycheck Protection Program that went to bail out tons of sham businesses that didnt need a bailout at all, and now will be "forgiven". So maybe its less than righteous of me to say; but if you arent advocating for a piece of the pie then it could argued you're a sucker falling on your sword in a time when no one else is. Especially since everybody will be equally fucked by the coming inflation that comes w printing trillions out of air for nothing produced, neccessarily and inarguably lowering the value of a dollar. I also think given that the CBA provides for hazard pay, its not a scam per se, and should have been given all along. Are you 100% certain the hazard pay specifically for FAA is in there? Makes sense if they're asking for advocacy

 

[mnsalty]

I’d rather work short, for my entire career, than work with people I can’t trust to do their job.

I can respect that.

But you really don't wanna train anyone until 2025? maybe longer? No way 100% comes back before then. You've obviously been around for a while - did traffic rebound immediately after 2008 or 9/11?

 

[Dontbotherme]

You think the quarantine everyone else for 14 days after a positive? Lmao.

You think if 50+ controllers, got sick at work, the agency wouldn’t have a shit fit when they called in sick because they all had COVID-19 or starting feeling ill?

 

[Super Salt]

I need another beer.

 

[mnsalty]

I need another beer.

good mods mod buzzed

 

[GulfCharlie]

LOL the agency. The non union agency members ARE training

Academy is a completely different beast. The Agency has direct control there and for once I at least applaud them for trying to keep the pipeline going even if people graduate and sit at home after, we all know it is needed. To be honest though I feel you, as a CPC-IT at a Level 9 for the last 3 years, who has encountered training delay after training delay due to staffing/management/whatever and who hardshipped at the bottom of a Level 6 CPC band to here thinking I would be finished in 2/2.5 years. The hardship was my choice and was made with fortuitous insight, given the fact I was in the hospital for a week in February and on steroids, but I digress. Everyone has a different situation and I am not passing judgement on yours but we do need to keep the heat up to a reasonable level without coming off as self righteous or self important.

Some solutions
-Email/Call your FacRep/RVP/ or the NEB
-Email/Call your ATM/OM/Training Contractors
-Reach out to your friends/colleagues at other facilities and see what they are doing or what their "in the moment" plan for return to training is
-Decrease PAC donations (if you contribute/contributed to the max as I did)

The most important thing after the job itself are the contacts you make in the Agency and acquiring the pieces to this puzzle. A lot of what happens in the Agency or will happen can be simply pieced together from a variety of sources. How you filter the information or what you do with it is up to you, but keep in mind a lot people see the bitching as entitlement, which we are rightfully allocated but how we conduct ourselves now along with our response will be seen by more than just our immediate colleagues. There is no excuse for keeping us in the dark or not even telling us how the plan is changing/evolving and I am with you 100% on that, but we have to be the better person in this as it will not go unnoticed.

 

[Dontbotherme]

delta has straight up said they'll be a smaller airline as a result of this. Your days of working 30 mile finals are probably over for a while. Sorry. Delta will maybe add a few flights every month for months until they build back up to the old normal. By then, even your greatness will have lost your touch a little bit. It's not the same as the sympathy certs that I'm aware of what you're talking about. In fact, if someone can't do the job, I'm all for terminating.

I’m sure the airlines will have to adjust to traffic demands, but to think a 30% reduction in traffic still makes us busier than every airport in the world except: ATL, DFW, LAX, and ORD’s 2019 numbers. We will still have 20 mile plus finals because we need the distance for TRIP PRMs.

 

[PushingTin]

??✝? swoon

 

[PushingTin]

Some solutions
-Email/Call your FacRep/RVP/ or the NEB
-Email/Call your ATM/OM/Training Contractors
-Reach out to your friends/colleagues at other facilities and see what they are doing or what their "in the moment" plan for return to training is
-Decrease PAC donations (if you contribute/contributed to the max as I did)

great post, but especially that part

 

[mnsalty]

Academy is a completely different beast. The Agency has direct control there and for once I at least applaud them for trying to keep the pipeline going even if people graduate and sit at home after, we all know it is needed. To be honest though I feel you, as a CPC-IT at a Level 9 for the last 3 years, who has encountered training delay after training delay due to staffing/management/whatever and who hardshipped at the bottom of a Level 6 CPC band to here thinking I would be finished in 2/2.5 years. The hardship was my choice and was made with fortuitous insight, given the fact I was in the hospital for a week in February and on steroids, but I digress. Everyone has a different situation and I am not passing judgement on yours but we do need to keep the heat up to a reasonable level without coming off as self righteous or self important.

Some solutions
-Email/Call your FacRep/RVP/ or the NEB
-Email/Call your ATM/OM/Training Contractors
-Reach out to your friends/colleagues at other facilities and see what they are doing or what their "in the moment" plan for return to training is
-Decrease PAC donations (if you contribute/contributed to the max as I did)

The most important thing after the job itself are the contacts you make in the Agency and acquiring the pieces to this puzzle. A lot of what happens in the Agency or will happen can be simply pieced together from a variety of sources. How you filter the information or what you do with it is up to you, but keep in mind a lot people see the bitching as entitlement, which we are rightfully allocated but how we conduct ourselves now along with our response will be seen by more than just our immediate colleagues. There is no excuse for keeping us in the dark or not even telling us how the plan is changing/evolving and I am with you 100% on that, but we have to be the better person in this as it will not go unnoticed.

I think someone covered this several pages ago. They either 1) won't reply or 2) it'll get back to your facility you're upset about the situation and not actually do any good since if they're spilling the beans there is a reason for it.