Shoot The Breeze

[GulfCharlie]

great post, but especially that part

I realise almost all of that might seem pointless except the PAC donations but when you run for NATCA office in a few years and someone drags this out 5 years from now, you need to be able to say "I tried everything that was available to me at the time to reach a speedy and conclusive resolution."

 

[Dontbotherme]

I can respect that.

But you really don't wanna train anyone until 2025? maybe longer? No way 100% comes back before then. You've obviously been around for a while - did traffic rebound immediately after 2008 or 9/11?

If I felt it was safe to train you tomorrow, I’d do it in a heartbeat. I feel like the potential risk is currently too great. The potential health risk to myself and my family is too great. Then again, I’m one of those people wearing a mask evidently just to spite Trump and actually stay at home and don’t go to beaches, bars, restaurants, et cetera.

I don’t know where you’re at, but here’s the site to the numbers. Select your facility, at the top, and your parameters. You can even do daily counts.

Air Traffic Activity System (ATADS)

 

[32andBelow]

Academy is a completely different beast. The Agency has direct control there and for once I at least applaud them for trying to keep the pipeline going even if people graduate and sit at home after, we all know it is needed. To be honest though I feel you, as a CPC-IT at a Level 9 for the last 3 years, who has encountered training delay after training delay due to staffing/management/whatever and who hardshipped at the bottom of a Level 6 CPC band to here thinking I would be finished in 2/2.5 years. The hardship was my choice and was made with fortuitous insight, given the fact I was in the hospital for a week in February and on steroids, but I digress. Everyone has a different situation and I am not passing judgement on yours but we do need to keep the heat up to a reasonable level without coming off as self righteous or self important.

Some solutions
-Email/Call your FacRep/RVP/ or the NEB
-Email/Call your ATM/OM/Training Contractors
-Reach out to your friends/colleagues at other facilities and see what they are doing or what their "in the moment" plan for return to training is
-Decrease PAC donations (if you contribute/contributed to the max as I did)

The most important thing after the job itself are the contacts you make in the Agency and acquiring the pieces to this puzzle. A lot of what happens in the Agency or will happen can be simply pieced together from a variety of sources. How you filter the information or what you do with it is up to you, but keep in mind a lot people see the bitching as entitlement, which we are rightfully allocated but how we conduct ourselves now along with our response will be seen by more than just our immediate colleagues. There is no excuse for keeping us in the dark or not even telling us how the plan is changing/evolving and I am with you 100% on that, but we have to be the better person in this as it will not go unnoticed.

I talk to people in the agency and in natca. But I come to an atc forum and bjtch about atc and it’s like public enemy number 1.

It’s clear no one at the local level knows anything or is involved with any of the dynamic Decisions being made

 

[spider]

delta has straight up said they'll be a smaller airline as a result of this. Your days of working 30 mile finals are probably over for a while. Sorry. Delta will maybe add a few flights every month for months until they build back up to the old normal. By then, even your greatness will have lost your touch a little bit. It's not the same as the sympathy certs that I'm aware of what you're talking about. In fact, if someone can't do the job, I'm all for terminating.

They went into holding multiple times this week. You’ve said before you’re at a Level 4 so you have no idea what you’re talking about.

You can’t even make up your mind. You went on a rant about there will be no staffing, no staffing, no staffing and now you’re back to everyone is getting furloughed.

 

[mnsalty]

They went into holding multiple times this week. You’ve said before you’re at a Level 4 so you have no idea what you’re talking about.

You can’t even make up your mind. You went on a rant about there will be no staffing, no staffing, no staffing and now you’re back to everyone is getting furloughed.

i might not be so confused if the union or FAA communicated better...

 

[Dontbotherme]

I talk to people in the agency and in natca. But I come to an atc forum and bjtch about atc and it’s like public enemy number 1.

It’s clear no one at the local level knows anything or is involved with any of the dynamic Decisions being made

Have you contacted your RVP or the NEB?

 

[mnsalty]

Have you contacted your RVP or the NEB?

I'm trying to find the post from a while ago but I think it's widely accepted it won't matter/you won't get any useful info. Do you recommend people for certification on the atlanta finals if they bitch the whole time, challenge you when you override them, and start shit because they have an opinion?

 

[PushingTin]

mnsalty youre in good form tonight. what ru drinking? 8)

 

[Dontbotherme]

I'm trying to find the post from a while ago but I think it's widely accepted it won't matter/you won't get any useful info. Do you recommend people for certification on the atlanta finals if they bitch the whole time, challenge you when you override them, and start shit because they have an opinion?

I’m telling you this as someone who has made calls, typed emails, pissed off whole facilities, stood outside the airport in picket lines during shutdowns, etc. TRY to get an answer. It is YOUR career. Type a nicely worded email to your RVP and CC your Fac Rep on it and state your concerns and ask for information.

You can’t compare inquiring for information to a combative trainee attempting to work final.

 

[mnsalty]

I’m telling you this as someone who has made calls, typed emails, pissed off whole facilities, stood outside the airport in picket lines during shutdowns, etc. TRY to get an answer. It is YOUR career. Type a nicely worded email to your RVP and CC your Fac Rep on it and state your concerns and ask for information.

You can’t compare inquiring for information to a combative trainee attempting to work final.

Fair enough. Bad comparison. I'll try to think of a better one...

 

[32andBelow]

Have you contacted your RVP or the NEB?

You are telling a trainee to leap frog the natca rep and go straight to the RVP. You’d be laughed at your next go on the floor. Is this like trying to get a trainee to say a fake call sign.

 

[PushingTin]

Fair enough. Bad comparison. I'll try to think of a better one...

Robert is being very tactful and making good constructive points. He has wisdom beyond most on this board for sure, which is largely "new people". I I will be devil's advocate. Remember, historically ATC training was almost synonymous w hazing. The heavy hitters are still from that era and most of them honestly believe trainees should be seen and not heard, and that whatever form of paying your dues happens; its paying your dues. Granted a pandemic is unforseen by all. That said, no one can go wrong w a nicely worded inquiry. Personally I think it would have to be above RVP level though to get actual real info. (depending on region) * EDIT * Even tho 32andBelow disagrees from what i see above this now lol

 

[CF]

You are telling a trainee to leap frog the natca rep and go straight to the RVP. You’d be laughed at your next go on the floor. Is this like trying to get a trainee to say a fake call sign.

If you give your rep a heads up that your reaching out to the RVP to see if they have any information I don’t think they’d care. I could potentially see it happening at a center since that’s basically a full time job but at some small tower? The reps are less experienced and rely heavily on the region anyway.

 

[Shikaka]

The last eight years have been mandatory six day workweeks for volunteers and non volunteers. So you’re not bringing up something new. Hell, the first week I wasn’t assigned OT was the first week of December in 2019! That’s only after management initiated the Make a Wish Foundation and certified almost anyone who was breathing. I’d rather work short, for my entire career, than work with people I can’t trust to do their job.

I gotta ask, at 85% staffing, why the 6 days?

 

[mnsalty]

Robert is being very tactful and making good constructive points. He has wisdom beyond most on this board for sure, which is largely "new people". I I will be devil's advocate. Remember, historically ATC training was almost synonymous w hazing. The heavy hitters are still from that era and most of them honestly believe trainees should be seen and not heard, and that whatever form of paying your dues happens; its paying your dues. Granted a pandemic is unforseen by all. That said, no one can go wrong w a nicely worded inquiry. Personally I think it would have to be above RVP level though to get actual real info. (depending on region) * EDIT * Even tho 32andBelow disagrees from what i see above this now lol

The info is clearly available to some. I think reps are largely being kept in the dark because they generally like to talk. I suspect RVPs have more info and answers than they're leading on. Their answers have changed from the telcons in April to now.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

You are telling a trainee to leap frog the natca rep and go straight to the RVP. You’d be laughed at your next go on the floor. Is this like trying to get a trainee to say a fake call sign.

RVPs have openly said to contact them if you have questions. However it's all about your approach, if you come off sounding like a dick, you aren't going to get anywhere. If you make it sound honest and genuine, you will atleast get a response of some sort. I second the suggestion to either CC your Facrep or atleast give him a heads-up.

NATCA Leadership

NATCA Leadership National Executive Board Rich Santa President Read More Andrew LeBovidge Executive Vice President Read More Clint Lancaster Alaskan Regional Vice President (NAL) Read More Aaron Merrick Central Regional Vice President (NCE) Read More Brian […]

www.natca.org

 

[32andBelow]

The info is clearly available to some. I think reps are largely being kept in the dark because they generally like to talk. I suspect RVPs have more info and answers than they're leading on. Their answers have changed from the telcons in April to now.

So the theory is the RVP will tell a lowly employee and not the rep?

 

[mnsalty]

RVPs have openly said to contact them if you have questions. However it's all about your approach, if you come off sounding like a dick, you aren't going to get anywhere. If you make it sound honest and genuine, you will atleast get a response of some sort. I second the suggestion to either CC your Facrep or atleast give him a heads-up.

NATCA Leadership

NATCA Leadership National Executive Board Rich Santa President Read More Andrew LeBovidge Executive Vice President Read More Clint Lancaster Alaskan Regional Vice President (NAL) Read More Aaron Merrick Central Regional Vice President (NCE) Read More Brian […]

www.natca.org

BS. If they are talking about it there is a reason. Asking questions when they aren't open to talking about it or share info is a recipe for disaster.

So the theory is the RVP will tell a lowly employee and not the rep?

The theory is the info stops at the RVPs and since there are less they can be trusted more to keep their mouths shut.

 

[32andBelow]

BS. If they are talking about it there is a reason. Asking questions when they aren't open to talking about it or share info is a recipe for disaster.


The theory is the info stops at the RVPs and since there are less they can be trusted more to keep their mouths shut.

I just don’t see how they’d tell us if they’re not even tell their rep.

 

[mnsalty]

I just don’t see how they’d tell us if they’re not even tell their rep.

exactly, they wont