4th quarter 2017

[Mike Kilo]

I have their names. I'm tempted to create a list and distribute it to the FacReps prior to each panel.

I think this would be a great idea. Facreps and ATMs.

Turning down an offer will impact the amount of hires they get, and it could be a few rounds before they get another chance. Which will push their releases out further possibly etc.

 

[MJ]

That's a really, really bad idea and a pretty lousy thing to do. The problem is with the system, not the ones forced into it.

 

[breakaway2000]

That's a really, really bad idea and a pretty lousy thing to do. The problem is with the system, not the ones forced into it.

We agree on almost everything, but we'll certainly disagree on this.

They're not mutually exclusive events. You can disagree with the system, but that doesn't give people free reign to damage the careers of their co-workers without consequence. For timeline purposes, if you can email the correct people by 8am on 9/7 to make sure you're not selected for the panel. Nothing will happen between 8am-2pm that will effect your decision making. If you turn down an ERR and block your co-workers, you are the lowest of the low in my book.

 

[MJ]

Making some sort of unofficial blacklist is nothing short of retribution for not getting what you want. You have no idea why someone requests/accepts/declines a transfer, but you'll try and hurt them because of potential effects on you. You shouldn't be expected to consider what every single other person in the FAA wants when deciding on what to do with your life, or be held accountable for it. What another person does in their life and career should have no bearing what-so-ever on your choices. A system that forces people into that is wrong.

 

[breakaway2000]

Making some sort of unofficial blacklist is nothing short of retribution for not getting what you want. You have no idea why someone requests/accepts/declines a transfer, but you'll try and hurt them because of potential effects on you. You shouldn't be expected to consider what every single other person in the FAA wants when deciding on what to do with your life, or be held accountable for it. What another person does in their life and career should have no bearing what-so-ever on your choices. A system that forces people into that is wrong.

You know we see eye to eye on the system as a whole. This system does force other controllers to be considerate of their co-workers. There's no getting around that. If you aren't, the consequences are massive. As you know, with the NCEPT in place, there are only certain windows to get to certain facilities, if you miss out on a panel because a co-worker is too lazy to remove an ERR, you may never get a chance at that facility again.

I don't believe there is any viable reason (knowing you can remove an ERR the day of the panel) that would cause someone to turn down an ERR and try to ERR other places the next panel. I've heard many stories from people who've had others block their facilities and each instance was inexcusable.

I guess our sympathies lie on different ends of the spectrum. My heart goes out to the 13 other controllers at those facilities this past panel who didn't get an opportunity. Did they miss out on their dream facility? Was that their one chance to get home? How much money did they just lose? etc.

If a FacRep does his/her job and calls to vet each candidate, I'd hope the information would come out. I expect them to be truthful. If someone can't work traffic, is an asshole and awful to be around, or turned down an ERR 3 months ago, I'd certainly like to know. In a large part, your reputation as a FacRep depends on being truthful.

Full disclosure: Someone not having the decency to remove an ERR has cost me ~$125,000 and ~$4,000 per year until I hit the band maximum.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

I am with MJ.

Is this what you want to happen? Air traffic man stabbed to death after jet crash

Things come up, things happen, people do more research. You aren't notified immediately of selection. Maybe something changed in that week. It sucks for those it affects but this process is to blame. I would hope the majority aren't doing it out of spite.

 

[breakaway2000]

I am with MJ.

Is this what you want to happen? Air traffic man stabbed to death after jet crash

Things come up, things happen, people do more research. You aren't notified immediately of selection. Maybe something changed in that week. It sucks for those it affects but this process is to blame. I would hope the majority aren't doing it out of spite.

You are notified immediately.
Peter Nielson's negligence caused 71 people to die, including the family of the Russian mobster who tracked him down and killed him. He spent less then a year in prison and was cheered as a hero when he returned to Russian.
Arnold Schwarzenegger even plays him in a 'Taken' style movie about the event.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

You are notified immediately.

Really? Because I saw a list posted on here of selections and texted my buddy congratulations and he had no idea what I was talking about and asked which facility selected him.

 

[breakaway2000]

Really? Because I saw a list posted on here of selections and texted my buddy congratulations and he had no idea what I was talking about and asked which facility selected him.

Notified in the sense that it's made publicly available to everyone the day of on the KSN, NATCA.ORG, and selection lists are sent to your FacRep.

 

[Mike Kilo]

[Removed by user]

 

[breakaway2000]

Out of curiosity, for those on the other end of the spectrum, what situation(s) do you feel are acceptable reasons to turn down a TOL and keep your other ERR's active or put more ERR's in for the next panel?

Also, it's not a secret who turns down their TOL's anymore, starting last panel, anyone can view it on the NCEPT portion of the KSN site. I'd imagine making the names publicly available was their intent to better inform ATM's/FacReps in the future.

 

[James]

I understand why you would be upset with your coworker, but at the end of the day it was NCEPT and NATCA that did you wrong.

 

[breakaway2000]

If people were considerate with their ERR's and if their word meant something when they accepted a TOL, the NCEPT would have never been created. As I'm sure everyone is aware, people would accept TOL's to facilities to get a release date with no intention of going. They'd then use that date as leverage when they continued to bid out. Those facilities were counting on those people coming and they would never show up. When the NCEPT started, one guy had 17 signed TOL's. 17.
ATM's and FacReps alike have continued to voice their frustration with people turning down TOL's. It effects the receiving and the releasing facility. Many solutions have been proposed and have been shot down.
Here's what has been done. A publicly available, searchable database.

Starting this panel, from the manager's ranking list, it takes two clicks for an ATM to search your name and see if you've previously turned down a TOL.
Two.
In my eyes, for those that turn down a TOL, this is far, far more crippling then a 1 year ban. 5 years from now an ATM can type your name in and see you turned down a TOL in September 2017. Will that be enough for them to rank you lower? Will they care enough to find out why? That's the gamble you'll be taking if you keep ERR's in the system that you would not accept. It has the potential to be a career crippling decision for you.

Be a good person. Remove your ERR's you would not accept.

 

[cmac]

I've had an err in for almost 3 years, and it looks like this may be the 1st panel I can be released. At this point I truly don't know if I'll accept it. Wife and kids and circumstances change. Now I'm already at a level 12 in a good place to live so if you're stuck at a low level facility in shitown, USA I could understand your rage. I also will not be putting in an err again if we decide that we are not going to do it, but it's a back and forth thing for me and my wife that we haven't even had the option to decide on for 3 years. If someone is shot gunning errs just to escape somewhere and then turns down an offer I get it, especially places where 1 person drastically changes your staffing. I am not against a 1 year freeze after a turn down. I'd be fine with it.
If it comes down to it and I turn it down and your blasting my name all over the internet we're going to have a problem. Personally dealing with someone at your facility whose circumstances you know and aren't happy with is one thing, blasting people you know nothing about is another.

 

[SugarFoot1]

I've had an err in for almost 3 years, and it looks like this may be the 1st panel I can be released. At this point I truly don't know if I'll accept it. Wife and kids and circumstances change. Now I'm already at a level 12 in a good place to live so if you're stuck at a low level facility in shitown, USA I could understand your rage. I also will not be putting in an err again if we decide that we are not going to do it, but it's a back and forth thing for me and my wife that we haven't even had the option to decide on for 3 years. If someone is shot gunning errs just to escape somewhere and then turns down an offer I get it, especially places where 1 person drastically changes your staffing. I am not against a 1 year freeze after a turn down. I'd be fine with it.
If it comes down to it and I turn it down and your blasting my name all over the internet we're going to have a problem. Personally dealing with someone at your facility whose circumstances you know and aren't happy with is one thing, blasting people you know nothing about is another.

How many people will u screw out of getting a release if your offered a facility? What's the manning at the fac your looking at going to? Thursday morning you should seriously decide if your offered if you would go that day, if you say no then you should call them before they select IMO

 

[rugbydog11]

The problem is there may be people putting in to LAX and N90 with no intent of going, just to block coworkers from getting the release.

 

[SugarFoot1]

The problem is there may people putting in to LAX and N90 with no intent of going, just to block coworkers from getting the release.

I would pull someone's toe nails off with needle nose pliers

 

[breakaway2000]

I've had an err in for almost 3 years, and it looks like this may be the 1st panel I can be released. At this point I truly don't know if I'll accept it. Wife and kids and circumstances change. Now I'm already at a level 12 in a good place to live so if you're stuck at a low level facility in shitown, USA I could understand your rage. I also will not be putting in an err again if we decide that we are not going to do it, but it's a back and forth thing for me and my wife that we haven't even had the option to decide on for 3 years. If someone is shot gunning errs just to escape somewhere and then turns down an offer I get it, especially places where 1 person drastically changes your staffing. I am not against a 1 year freeze after a turn down. I'd be fine with it.
If it comes down to it and I turn it down and your blasting my name all over the internet we're going to have a problem. Personally dealing with someone at your facility whose circumstances you know and aren't happy with is one thing, blasting people you know nothing about is another.

See the post above, HR will publish your name, post it on the KSN, and it will be available to ATM's/FacReps/etc. It's nothing I'm doing.
Your situation doesn't change if you have a TOL in front of you or not. Decide beforehand. You still have 4 days to email the correct people to remove it.

 

[Move78]

I've had an err in for almost 3 years, and it looks like this may be the 1st panel I can be released. At this point I truly don't know if I'll accept it. Wife and kids and circumstances change. Now I'm already at a level 12 in a good place to live so if you're stuck at a low level facility in shitown, USA I could understand your rage. I also will not be putting in an err again if we decide that we are not going to do it, but it's a back and forth thing for me and my wife that we haven't even had the option to decide on for 3 years. If someone is shot gunning errs just to escape somewhere and then turns down an offer I get it, especially places where 1 person drastically changes your staffing. I am not against a 1 year freeze after a turn down. I'd be fine with it.
If it comes down to it and I turn it down and your blasting my name all over the internet we're going to have a problem. Personally dealing with someone at your facility whose circumstances you know and aren't happy with is one thing, blasting people you know nothing about is another.

ZFW can release 7 this panel so it's possible you won't be screwing anyone in house. Not guaranteed, but possible. But it almost guaranteed that you'll be screwing someone from a different facility that would have got your spot at wherever you put in. And it could have been that person's only shot at that facility for 3 months (not a huge deal but still bush) or years or ever.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I've had an err in for almost 3 years, and it looks like this may be the 1st panel I can be released. At this point I truly don't know if I'll accept it. Wife and kids and circumstances change. Now I'm already at a level 12 in a good place to live so if you're stuck at a low level facility in shitown, USA I could understand your rage. I also will not be putting in an err again if we decide that we are not going to do it, but it's a back and forth thing for me and my wife that we haven't even had the option to decide on for 3 years. If someone is shot gunning errs just to escape somewhere and then turns down an offer I get it, especially places where 1 person drastically changes your staffing. I am not against a 1 year freeze after a turn down. I'd be fine with it.
If it comes down to it and I turn it down and your blasting my name all over the internet we're going to have a problem. Personally dealing with someone at your facility whose circumstances you know and aren't happy with is one thing, blasting people you know nothing about is another.

Then talk with your wife and figure your shit out. What is the difference between finding out next week or today? Simple yes or no question. You can't tell me seven days make that big a difference in your decision.