Aircraft is VFR in traffic pattern and has an IFR filed to an airport with CFR or Ground Stop. Should we hold them until getting release time?

[FloopThePig]

I've always had the understanding that we don't deny the clearance when they are already airborne, but a few are arguing that there is a CFR and we still need a call for release.

I disagree and believe that we can't deny them that clearance once they are already airborne.

 

[S.T.O.P.]

That aircraft better be familiar with holding

 

[eltors0]

Just because someone is airborne doesn’t mean they get the IFR service if a TMI is in place. There still needs to be a place to put them into the stream. That doesn’t mean they can’t continue on VFR but they aren’t guaranteed IFR services.

 

[S.T.O.P.]

I work in the SoCal region and we usually just tell pilots “unable from approach” since we don’t wanna deal with them.

Last thing approach wants is “hey this guy in the pattern is looking to pick up their ifr and depart to this airport with CFR, how does that sound?”

 

[Termine]

we can't deny them that clearance once they are already airborne.

What is your source for this? I don't believe there is one. Interested if you can find something in the .65 to support your position.

Canceling an IFR flight plan is the pilot's sole prerogative, of course. But nothing says they're entitled to receive an IFR clearance in the first place. That's the entire purpose of traffic management initiatives.

 

[FloopThePig]

What is your source for this? I don't believe there is one. Interested if you can find something in the .65 to support your position.

Canceling an IFR flight plan is the pilot's sole prerogative, of course. But nothing says they're entitled to receive an IFR clearance in the first place. That's the entire purpose of traffic management initiatives.

I couldn't find anything, that's why I'm asking. I just vaguely remember learning way back in CTI that pilots will sometimes avoid holding on the ground by departing VFR and picking up IFR in the air if their destination has a CFR.

In the past I've just issued the IFR, working departure, since they are already airborne. Should I be holding them and getting the CFR, and if the release is a long time like 30min+, should I hold them and just tell them they could go VFR if they'd like?

 

[Whiskey Charlie]

I couldn't find anything, that's why I'm asking. I just vaguely remember learning way back in CTI that pilots will sometimes avoid holding on the ground by departing VFR and picking up IFR in the air if their destination has a CFR.

In the past I've just issued the IFR, working departure, since they are already airborne. Should I be holding them and getting the CFR, and if the release is a long time like 30min+, should I hold them and just tell them they could go VFR if they'd like?

I’ve had this scenario before and TMU said they can’t schedule a time because they’re already airborne and just let them go but tell them they’ll likely hold somewhere.

 

[FloopThePig]

Just because someone is airborne doesn’t mean they get the IFR service if a TMI is in place. There still needs to be a place to put them into the stream. That doesn’t mean they can’t continue on VFR but they aren’t guaranteed IFR services.

So I can just tell them "unable to issue clearance due to Traffic Management"?

 

[eltors0]

So I can just tell them "unable to issue clearance due to Traffic Management"?

To put it simply, yes. They don’t get to just skip ahead because they are in the air if there are impediments that would be generated from that flight not complying with the TMI.

 

[FloopThePig]

I’ve had this scenario before and TMU said they can’t schedule a time because they’re already airborne and just let them go but tell them they’ll likely hold somewhere.

Yeah I remember one time someone VFR airborne asked for IFR to a destination with a CFR or Ground Stop (can't remember which) and I gave it and TMU called and said "hey we have a [CFR/Ground Stop]" referencing the same guy, and I told them "yeah he was already airborne and asked for IFR" and TMU just said "oh okay then"

 

[Termine]

I just vaguely remember learning way back in CTI that pilots will sometimes avoid holding on the ground by departing VFR and picking up IFR in the air if their destination has a CFR.

Yeah, they're cheating the system by playing on your emotions. "Oh he's already airborne, I don't want to make him land again, hey TMU is it okay if I just clear him?" It's not a rule that you have to do that.

If they want to fly VFR at 175 all the way down to Florida they can do that but there's still going to be congestion when they get to the runway...

 

[Gauff]

I couldn't find anything, that's why I'm asking. I just vaguely remember learning way back in CTI that pilots will sometimes avoid holding on the ground by departing VFR and picking up IFR in the air if their destination has a CFR.

In the past I've just issued the IFR, working departure, since they are already airborne. Should I be holding them and getting the CFR, and if the release is a long time like 30min+, should I hold them and just tell them they could go VFR if they'd like?

We tell them that they can continue on vfr but if they want to go ifr they are gonna be held until the cfr window. If they choose to go vfr we tell them that we'll remove their ifr flight plan from the system.

Some pilots will try over and over to jump the queue and we pretty much tell them it's not happening

 

[Geeare27]

They aren't IFR until they receive a clearance and you can absolutely refuse to give them a clearance

 

[CaptainObvious]

Yeah, they're cheating the system by playing on your emotions. "Oh he's already airborne, I don't want to make him land again, hey TMU is it okay if I just clear him?" It's not a rule that you have to do that.

If they want to fly VFR at 175 all the way down to Florida they can do that but there's still going to be congestion when they get to the runway...

You can’t “make” him land again.

 

[Shikaka]

As an approach controller, VFR picking up IFR to a field that's got flow is lower in priority than me trying to figure out what in the fuck the Chinese national flying the diamondstar is trying to do in my departure corridor.

He's VFR, he can stay VFR.

 

[MJ]

TMU hates this one trick…

They’ll try this on arrival too, if you haven’t already seen it. Vector for sequence-> cancel IFR, request direct-> unable, vector for sequence-> terminate flight following-> roger, remain outside class Charlie, buhbye-> uhhhh… what was that heading again?

Don’t give in!

 

[ManBearPig]

TMU hates this one trick…

They’ll try this on arrival too, if you haven’t already seen it. Vector for sequence-> cancel IFR, request direct-> unable, vector for sequence-> terminate flight following-> roger, remain outside class Charlie, buhbye contact the Class D VFR tower, see yaaaaaaa

Don’t give in!

 

[SquawkHijack]

I've always had the understanding that we don't deny the clearance when they are already airborne, but a few are arguing that there is a CFR and we still need a call for release.

I disagree and believe that we can't deny them that clearance once they are already airborne.

We can absolutely deny an IFR clearance to an airborne aircraft who’s filed to a destination airport with a TMI in effect. They can proceed to their destination VFR, but if it’s anywhere with a bravo they can deny entry into the bravo and the pilot would have to declare emergency to land there.

 

[CinderBlock]

TMU hates this one trick…

They’ll try this on arrival too, if you haven’t already seen it. Vector for sequence-> cancel IFR, request direct-> unable, vector for sequence-> terminate flight following-> roger, remain outside class Charlie, buhbye-> uhhhh… what was that heading again?

Don’t give in!

91.123b and the Karas decision from 2013 “we’d like to terminate flight following” “No.”

 

[Dousand24]

This is my favorite game during the winter…I love denying IFR service when planes try to work the system