Certification Ride

OrangeYOGAMat

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FAA
Messages
39
Facility
MKC Kansas City Downtown Tower
I've always heard that working routine moderate traffic under general supervision is the benchmark for certification. Is there any truth to this?
 

ATC_av8er

Trusted Contributor
Messages
100
I've always heard that working routine moderate traffic under general supervision is the benchmark for certification. Is there any truth to this?
I don't think it's written anywhere but this has generally been the guideline. The caveat is a supe can't repeatedly give you a check ride and deny certification if traffic levels aren't what they want them to be.
 

FightingIrish2012

Trusted Contributor
Messages
273
I've always heard that working routine moderate traffic under general supervision is the benchmark for certification. Is there any truth to this?
That is the literal written guideline but no, it is not true that you will be certified when you can do this (at least in 98% of places). Old school trainers and sups (and even a lot of new ones) will need to see you work heavy and complex traffic completely independently before they recommend and certify you. It’s one of the biggest problems in the agency and probably the biggest roadblock that slows down the training process.

If a trainee has a recommendation every time in the agency a sup did a certification check and didn’t certify because “it was not busy enough” should have their certification back dated and raises retro paid. There is no provision that is supposed to allow sups to do this. But the OJTIs are at fault too most of the time, a lot of outdated old school training methods and philosophies have be improved upon with the new generation but this subject unfortunately there has been no movement on.

I know moderate traffic under general supervision can come off as a low standard, but most people improve more working alone after a certification then they did when there were training. Also there are reasons why at a up/down you can be CIC until 6-12 months after a certification and in centers you are supposed to always have a D side the first 90 days after a radar certification. This is so you can certify under moderate/general supervision standard but people ignore it.

#weusedtobebusy
 

Ad1234

Member
Messages
15
(2) After the certification skill check, the employee’s FLM/STMC must consider the following items prior to taking the appropriate action:

(a) The developmental’s/CPC-IT’s/TMC-IT’s/FPL-IT’s performance during OJT.

(b) The performance demonstrated during the certification skill check session.

(c) The recommendation(s) resulting from the certification skill check session.

(d) Input from other training team members.


this is all the national training order says about the benchmark for certification. everything else is unwritten and through "Past Practices" of the agency. Yes they absolutely cannot repeatedly say traffic isnt what they want especially if your training history is good and recommendations are strong. but if your training is spotty and recommendations are weak or non existent, they can say with good justification that overall you haven't demonstrated the ability, even if on moderate traffic that is handled well during the cert ride. also, OJTIs basically do they same thing at many facilities, they don't recommend because they haven't seen you work the traffic they used to work or whatever crap they say. so why would a manager go against the training team when your coworkers don't say without a doubt that they want to work beside you?
 

Dominipino

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
90
Facility
PRC Prescott Tower
(2) After the certification skill check, the employee’s FLM/STMC must consider the following items prior to taking the appropriate action:

(a) The developmental’s/CPC-IT’s/TMC-IT’s/FPL-IT’s performance during OJT.

(b) The performance demonstrated during the certification skill check session.

(c) The recommendation(s) resulting from the certification skill check session.

(d) Input from other training team members.


this is all the national training order says about the benchmark for certification. everything else is unwritten and through "Past Practices" of the agency. Yes they absolutely cannot repeatedly say traffic isnt what they want especially if your training history is good and recommendations are strong. but if your training is spotty and recommendations are weak or non existent, they can say with good justification that overall you haven't demonstrated the ability, even if on moderate traffic that is handled well during the cert ride. also, OJTIs basically do they same thing at many facilities, they don't recommend because they haven't seen you work the traffic they used to work or whatever crap they say. so why would a manager go against the training team when your coworkers don't say without a doubt that they want to work beside you?
Last year while I was training, 3 recommendations later, and several weeks between each recommendation, and after a 2 hour check ride that every CPC said they had never seen it that busy ever, and my sup saying I did nothing wrong procedurally and never compromised safety, I was told no certification 😂. The guy who got certified a month and a half before me had a 5th the traffic and 30 min on position

oh and I got another two hour session the next day with a reluctant yes.

i really hate management doesn’t have more clear guidelines so they can’t just mess with people because they don’t like them.
 

mrobs15

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I ♥ pointSixtyFive
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285
If you trainers and supe like you they will get you certified unless you just plain suck.

Its the beautiful thing about training in ATC, you get to decide who you work with.
 
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Gern Blanston

Trusted Contributor
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8
I was one of those old dinosaurs that needed to see a developmental work what I considered to be heavy traffic before I would give a recommend. This was a level 7 that had been downgraded to a 6. My recollections of busy traffic were pre 9/11. My last radar trainee before I retired was doing okay, not a shining star but kept them apart. I reluctantly gave a recommend and she got a check ride. The sup was medically disqualified , so I had to be plugged in with her while he listened in the overhead. It got as busy as I'd seen it in years, she started down the tubes and I couldn't help. But she eventually got things straightened out and everyone got where they wanted safely. Four years later, she hasn't had a problem. Learned a lot that day, if a developmental knows the rules and can keep them apart certify them, most of the learning comes from being on your own.
 

Gern Blanston

Trusted Contributor
Messages
8
Well, I had 40+ trainees over 30 years and every single one made it and I'm very proud of that. Most moved on to much busier facilities, checked out and are thriving. I'm proud of them all, thanks for calling me a terrible person. My retirement is enjoyable and well earned.
 

Dominipino

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
90
Facility
PRC Prescott Tower
Well, I had 40+ trainees over 30 years and every single one made it and I'm very proud of that. Most moved on to much busier facilities, checked out and are thriving. I'm proud of them all, thanks for calling me a terrible person. My retirement is enjoyable and well earned.
Did someone’s post get deleted? Who called you a terrible person?
 

Larsiny006

Lurker
Messages
5
So has anyone ever been able to get their certification back dated and raises retro paid? Or is just a mouth thing with no action?
 

GulfBravoPapa

Forum Sage
Messages
709
So has anyone ever been able to get their certification back dated and raises retro paid? Or is just a mouth thing with no action?
No. You won't get your certification backdated. The overall decision lies with the supervisor, not with your trainers.
 

Phillyman2633

Forum Sage
Messages
149
Trust me, even after multiple violations of the Training Order (i.e. no skills checks, no training for an entire calendar month, etc...), they won't backdate your certification. It would also help to have a FacRep who isnt a complete scumbag, but that's a story for another time ❤
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
705
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Trust me, even after multiple violations of the Training Order (i.e. no skills checks, no training for an entire calendar month, etc...), they won't backdate your certification. It would also help to have a FacRep who isnt a complete scumbag, but that's a story for another time ❤
Maybe you need to start putting your mouth to work
 
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