Wait time from recommendation to checkride?

[NEatc933]

I'm curious if anyone can shed some light on this. At our facility, our sups like to wait a while from the time someone is recommended until they sit with them for certs. For example, we had 1 person recommended in radar since Christmas and another the very end of December. The sup has just finally sat with the Christmas guy and full certified him today, the day after the ppt freeze. Had he done this in a timely manner we would have been able to let someone go this panel.

Now, I've talked to people at other facilities and each one of them has told me that the longest they have between recommendation and cert was around a week but they couldn't offer anything in an order. In order for us to change anything at our place it has to be in an order somewhere. We have looked in the 3120.4 and all we came up with was:

b. Certification skill checks may be:

(1) Conducted prior to completing target hours if minimum certification hours have been met.​

(2) Conducted prior to exhausting the total additional hours if assigned.​

Nothing about them having to do it within a certain time frame of the recommendation. So are we just shit out of luck with sups who like to sit on recommendations or can anyone point me in the direction of another order? Thanks for any insight.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

I don't believe there is any directive. Ultimately the supervisor is in charge of their employees. They should take the training team's recommendations into consideration but they will watch the employee for certification when they are comfortable with it.

Perhaps talk to your fac rep.

 

[MJ]

They have to be able to tell you what needs improvement or why they think you are lacking, etc.. All that documentation you do in training team meetings has a purpose. If they intentionally drag things out, you can grieve it if they cannot provide justification.

 

[NEatc933]

I don't believe there is any directive. Ultimately the supervisor is in charge of their employees. They should take the training team's recommendations into consideration but they will watch the employee for certification when they are comfortable with it.

Perhaps talk to your fac rep.

I was afraid of that. We have been talking with the fact rep. He sent this up the chain within our region. He also asked us to take a look to see if he missed anything. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Stinger]

I've seen it to every extreme possible and there's no right/wrong answer.
One was no cert recommendation from the training team and the supervisor did a check ride and certified the controller anyway.
Some are like your example where there's a recommendation, but the supervisor waits to do a check ride. Some cases have been valid because schedules and traffic volume didn't line up for a while. (Also seen a supervisor come in on a day off on credit time just to do a check ride.)
And then my favorite: get a recommendation, then another supervisor the next day puts you on a training session....but you tell him you don't want to train because you've got a recommendation and you don't want to make a stupid mistake and screw it up.
My other favorite....getting check rides on positions that your supervisor isn't certified on. Plugged in with a trainer and supervisor watching from another position.

 

[NEatc933]

They have to be able to tell you what needs improvement or why they think you are lacking, etc.. All that documentation you do in training team meetings has a purpose. If they intentionally drag things out, you can grieve it if they cannot provide justification.

Thanks MJ. They don't have justification. They just pick and choose who gets a check ride quick and who ends up waiting 1+month(s). I had a short wait for my check rides and I've seen someone recommended before Thanksgiving and not get sat with until 12/31. We are getting a new ATM soon so hopefully things will change.

 

[NEatc933]

My other favorite....getting check rides on positions that your supervisor isn't certified on. Plugged in with a trainer and supervisor watching from another position.

Haha, I've heard that's how it works at the centers. I hear you about the extremes. Knoxville is my first facility so I don't have much to base this off but I feel like we hit every extreme in every facet of the operation.

 

[breakaway2000]

Everything that has been said is correct. I'll add that it's a culture that has manifested at your facility. It needs to change and your need strong leadership to do it. I'm glad to hear that your FacRep is going up the chain of command. With a 33% checkout rate for 4 years at a level 7, you guys are in need of a complete, top to bottom, change in the training department. Everything should be on the table.

Points to bring up...
-Waiting a month+ to give a check ride shows a complete lack of confidence in the training team and their recommendation. In the new spirit of collaboration, respect has to come both ways.
- Waiting a month+ pushes trainees further toward their max hours and does not give the chance for additional hours/skill enhancement training in the event of a failed checkride. I'm willing to bet that at least someone has washed in the past with a recommendation.
- Waiting a month+ takes resources away from the training department as OJT's continue to train these OJTI's with recommendations instead of other trainees in need of time.
- I don't know facility specific items, but in terms of talking points with your ATM, I'm going to bet overtime has been called at some point that could've been avoided if these people had certified in a timely manner. Additionally, the agency is wasting $1,000's of dollars in additional OJT time to train recommended trainees.

 

[DankVectorz]

- I don't know facility specific items, but in terms of talking points with your ATM, I'm going to bet overtime has been called at some point that could've been avoided if these people had certified in a timely manner. Additionally, the agency is wasting $1,000's of dollars in additional OJT time to train recommended trainees.

Still cheaper than a CPC salary

 

[breakaway2000]

Still cheaper than a CPC salary

Isn't that the N90 motto? lol
While OT is always cheaper then bringing in a new employee, when you factor in health benefits, retirement, life insuance, etc, the difference between D3 and CPC at a level 7 is roughly $750 a month. You're well above that with 1 OT shift and an additional 25-40 hours of OJT incentive pay.

 

[NEatc933]

Points to bring up...
-Waiting a month+ to give a check ride shows a complete lack of confidence in the training team and their recommendation. In the new spirit of collaboration, respect has to come both ways.
- Waiting a month+ pushes trainees further toward their max hours and does not give the chance for additional hours/skill enhancement training in the event of a failed checkride. I'm willing to bet that at least someone has washed in the past with a recommendation.

So almost a year ago we had a 2 man team, NATCA/FAA, come into the facility and interview all the CPCs and trainees due to the fat that the district was getting heat from somewhere as to why our numbers are as bad as they are. No one is really sure what the CPCs said, but all the trainees (I was still one back then) brought up your first 2 points word for word. The interviewers seemed to agree with the trainees. In the end they made their recommendation to whomever they had to (we never found out what they thought) and a internal training orders review panel was made. This panel actually fought for some good things but of course management had the final say. All that came from this panel was;

• 90 hours added to radar east for a total of 210 hours (unnecessary)
• and priority weeks for trainees, seeing as we have 17.

Nothing was changed about the wait time from recommendation to checkride. And yes, people have washed here with a recommendation. It was that guy in the Feb 2018 NCEPT thread who was asking about going back from FSS to controlling via NCEPT. He was recommended, went to a TRB got a new training team and was recommended again and still washed. He was one of the most vocal trainees during that training interview. The FLM that washed him had a reputation of, if he didn't like you it was going to be an uphill battle to change his mind on you. There is obviously other parts to this story but nothing warranting washing someone out that could have made it here. This is also the same FLM that washed out the guy you're now with at ZTL. Im sure he can give you some good stories. Since the interview team, he has actually mellowed out a lot so maybe something else good came from them?

Point is we are fighting but nothing is changing. Our acting ATM is the previously mentioned FLM. Hopefully on the union side we hear back from regional and or National on how to get this changed.