2025 Federal Pay Raise

[Gauff]

Losing the 1.6 raises when you change levels def needs to be addressed. You should never lose a step once you are hired.

100% agree with this!

I don't buy in to the thought process that you're paying within a band should be relative to how long you've been at that band or facility level. It should carry over and you should never lose a step raise

In a seniority driven career field I shouldn't be making the same as a new hire out of the academy if I transfer after 10 years just because we certified at whatever facility at the same time

 

[32andBelow]

Exactly. Basically after a certain point it’s not worth transferring unless it’s a 10,11,12. Because bottom of that band isn’t attractive otherwise.

It’s crazy that someone with 20 years of they go from a 7 to 10 they’d make less than me.

At my wife’s work they call it steps and lanes. A lane would be like a level and a step is a step. When you switch lanes you go straight across in your step.

 

[ATC Zero]

It’s crazy that someone with 20 years of they go from a 7 to 10 they’d make less than me.

At my wife’s work they call it steps and lanes. A lane would be like a level and a step is a step. When you switch lanes you go straight across in your step.

Yep this career has turned everything into a gamble and it’s only pissing people off.

 

[GulfCharlie]

Yep this career has turned everything into a gamble and it’s only pissing people off.

Master Chief mentioned something about a DRB, they have the paddle ready.

 

[Dolan]

Except I don't. I've already proven we make more than what you lead on. You guys aren't ever getting a raise you think you deserve because you live in delusions.

Your numbers are accurate for the situation you described but I'd argue that the big problem lies at the lower bands and for new hires. Nothing you said accounts for what has happened to housing or the 4.4 or whatever it is FERS contributions that new employees are being forced to do (albeit this happened well before the ZIRP inflation). The problem is that the bottom has completely fallen out for new/prospective controllers and that's where any fixes to staffing are going to come from. 100k salaries for engineers straight out of college are now commonplace. AG pay hasn't really moved and I'd really have a hard time recommending ATC to anyone without a college degree these days, let alone someone with one. Mick sort of touches on this in one of his videos talking about how DOD straight up beats FAA for lower levels.

Something definitely needs to change with pay. Probably not the 30% everyone is hoping for but there is huuuuuge room for improvement especially at the lower levels.

 

[RadarRick]

Look at how every single airline pays their pilots. Steps for years of Seniority, then higher base pay for moving into bigger/long haul flights.

You dont go from flying the 737 at United for 8 years, finally get your 787 spot and go back to the bottom of the pay band for that type. You keep your 8 years of raises and jump into Year 8 pay for that category A/C. Absolutely 0 reason that the FAA doesnt pay Controllers in the same way. Btw that 8 year 787 pilot is making around $350k+ awesome benefits to work 6-10 days a month, all on the back of our 6 day work weeks to maybe hit 220-250 but never see our families.

Thats something that would have to be.......negotiated. But god forbid we do that and the FAA ask for something in return.....like you know, how a negotiation works. NATCA has lost the plot on PAY and WORKING CONDITIONS, and the people in charge of it all dont do the same job we do, so they really dont GAF. There is no issue with pay for the people sitting at home on a Detail unsupervised, or sitting in an office in DC on a detail. Just plug in and god forbid you post on a Subreddit with other like minded people who are fed up with this system that threw the lineholding, board working Controller overboard 10-15 fucking years ago. Gotta Collaborate!!

 

[32andBelow]

Your numbers are accurate for the situation you described but I'd argue that the big problem lies at the lower bands and for new hires. Nothing you said accounts for what has happened to housing or the 4.4 or whatever it is FERS contributions that new employees are being forced to do (albeit this happened well before the ZIRP inflation). The problem is that the bottom has completely fallen out for new/prospective controllers and that's where any fixes to staffing are going to come from. 100k salaries for engineers straight out of college are now commonplace. AG pay hasn't really moved and I'd really have a hard time recommending ATC to anyone without a college degree these days, let alone someone with one. Mick sort of touches on this in one of his videos talking about how DOD straight up beats FAA for lower levels.

Something definitely needs to change with pay. Probably not the 30% everyone is hoping for but there is huuuuuge room for improvement especially at the lower levels.

You really should just get full pay from the minute you are hired. You shouldn’t be punished for having to wait to get trained. At the least they should have time based bumps where you get the step after a certain amount of time no matter what so people know exactly how long they have to plan on being AG

 

[ClearanceClarence]

You really should just get full pay from the minute you are hired. You shouldn’t be punished for having to wait to get trained. At the least they should have time based bumps where you get the step after a certain amount of time no matter what so people know exactly how long they have to plan on being AG

This is a big reason why so many trainees have quit over the last several years. The agency advertises this as a “no experience, 6 figure job” but then people get stuck making $50K in many cases for years. For a lot of people coming in now, AG is a pay cut and the possibility of making it through training a few years down the road isn’t worth it.

 

[Mike Kilo]

This is a big reason why so many trainees have quit over the last several years. The agency advertises this as a “no experience, 6 figure job” but then people get stuck making $50K in many cases for years. For a lot of people coming in now, AG is a pay cut and the possibility of making it through training a few years down the road isn’t worth it.

Then you add in that sups move up and get their pay raise day one. No 50% on the go and cert bullshit. How we haven’t fought to get controllers who move up the same thing is beyond me.

 

[Gauff]

Look at how every single airline pays their pilots. Steps for years of Seniority, then higher base pay for moving into bigger/long haul flights.

You dont go from flying the 737 at United for 8 years, finally get your 787 spot and go back to the bottom of the pay band for that type. You keep your 8 years of raises and jump into Year 8 pay for that category A/C. Absolutely 0 reason that the FAA doesnt pay Controllers in the same way. Btw that 8 year 787 pilot is making around $350k+ awesome benefits to work 6-10 days a month, all on the back of our 6 day work weeks to maybe hit 220-250 but never see our families.

Thats something that would have to be.......negotiated. But god forbid we do that and the FAA ask for something in return.....like you know, how a negotiation works. NATCA has lost the plot on PAY and WORKING CONDITIONS, and the people in charge of it all dont do the same job we do, so they really dont GAF. There is no issue with pay for the people sitting at home on a Detail unsupervised, or sitting in an office in DC on a detail. Just plug in and god forbid you post on a Subreddit with other like minded people who are fed up with this system that threw the lineholding, board working Controller overboard 10-15 fucking years ago. Gotta Collaborate!!

Also with the airlines, their RVP equivalents get trip drops for union time but they still consistently fly the line. So they end up being much more in tune with their average member.

Now I'm not sure it's feasible in ATC, with the nature of having to keep current and be proficient, but if our rvps were around the average controller much more often and hear the daily grievances we'd be better off

 

[ClearanceClarence]

Then you add in that sups move up and get their pay raise day one. No 50% on the go and cert bullshit. How we haven’t fought to get controllers who live up the same thing is beyond me.

We really haven’t fought for anything over the last decade other than an extra 10% OJTI bump and extending 5 on 10 off (for some facilities) as long as possible during COVID.

 

[Spoony90]

You really should just get full pay from the minute you are hired. You shouldn’t be punished for having to wait to get trained. At the least they should have time based bumps where you get the step after a certain amount of time no matter what so people know exactly how long they have to plan on being AG

Too many scammers. Trainees would be fight and scheming to not train. I’ve seen it at my facility so many times

 

[ClearanceClarence]

Too many scammers. Trainees would be fight and scheming to not train. I’ve seen it at my facility so many times

I agree there needs to be some type of incentive to certify, but AG pay needs to go. It’s not enough to make ends meet in many locations and there’s too much outside of the trainee’s control as to how long they’re stuck on it.

 

[32andBelow]

Too many scammers. Trainees would be fight and scheming to not train. I’ve seen it at my facility so many times

it’s BS tho. You are at work. If you are assigned to train you will train. This is what has been great about the NTI. If you are at work you should be plugged in. Period. Very easy fix if it’s happening where you are.

I also think they should get rid of arbitrary hours which seems to be the hold up in so many places why there are excuses not to train someone on a particular day.

 

[blarg]

The ignorance by some people regarding basic economics is baffling sometimes. If you have a strong, healthy economy, home prices would have remained in reach for far more Americans. When government spending fueled inflation spirals out of control, it forces the fed to raise interest rates, which in turns incentivizes people who locked in at 2-3% mortgage rates to never sell. You then have a housing shortage, driving the prices of the few that do go to market through the roof.

This isn't a correct representation of the economy at all. "If you have a strong, healthy economy, home prices would have remained in reach for far more Americans." How'd you come up with that? Sounds like something that you're saying just because you want it to be true. The stock market has been very strong, which gives people with money even more money, which lets them pay more for houses, which drives up housing costs (foreign and corporate investments are also part of this).
Also, gov't spending can be a cause of inflation, but was not the primary factor if the past few years. Covid supply chain issues and corporate profiteering caused the majority of that. Supply/logistics are pretty much back to normal now, which is why it has dropped back down a lot.

 

[KP-ATC]

This isn't a correct representation of the economy at all. "If you have a strong, healthy economy, home prices would have remained in reach for far more Americans." How'd you come up with that? Sounds like something that you're saying just because you want it to be true. The stock market has been very strong, which gives people with money even more money, which lets them pay more for houses, which drives up housing costs (foreign and corporate investments are also part of this).
Also, gov't spending can be a cause of inflation, but was not the primary factor if the past few years. Covid supply chain issues and corporate profiteering caused the majority of that. Supply/logistics are pretty much back to normal now, which is why it has dropped back down a lot.

How has the stock market done compared to inflation?
What happens when the government increases the supply of money - how much was it - 30% or so?

 

[Spoony90]

it’s BS tho. You are at work. If you are assigned to train you will train. This is what has been great about the NTI. If you are at work you should be plugged in. Period. Very easy fix if it’s happening where you are.

I also think they should get rid of arbitrary hours which seems to be the hold up in so many places why there are excuses not to train someone on a particular day.

I’ve seen the things trainees do to not train. We had a center guy here. He often bragged about being the highest paid ground controller in the NAS. He spent 6-7 years dodging training to not certify on purpose. Everyone on 6 day work weeks and this guy, making more than anyone else just to work ground and local while the CPCs are getting their teeth kicked in on radar

 

[PooseMaGoose]

This isn't a correct representation of the economy at all. "If you have a strong, healthy economy, home prices would have remained in reach for far more Americans." How'd you come up with that? Sounds like something that you're saying just because you want it to be true. The stock market has been very strong, which gives people with money even more money, which lets them pay more for houses, which drives up housing costs (foreign and corporate investments are also part of this).
Also, gov't spending can be a cause of inflation, but was not the primary factor if the past few years. Covid supply chain issues and corporate profiteering caused the majority of that. Supply/logistics are pretty much back to normal now, which is why it has dropped back down a lot.

"Inflation is made in Washington because only Washington can 'create' money. Any other attribution to other groups of inflation is wrong. Consumers don't produce it. Producers don't produce it. Trade unions don't produce it. Foreign sheikhs don't produce it. Oil imports don't produce it.

What produces it is too much government spending and too much government creation of money and nothing else."

- Milton Friedman


Saying inflation is the result of supply chains, corporate profiteering, etc. is just another tactic used by the desperate to shift the blame away from the one entity that is responsible for actual inflation... The federal government.

Thank you for another incorrect hot take masquerading as fact, blarg. We can always count on you for that.

 

[Spoony90]

I agree there needs to be some type of incentive to certify, but AG pay needs to go. It’s not enough to make ends meet in many locations and there’s too much outside of the trainee’s control as to how long they’re stuck on it.

Idk man. I’m just a bit jaded by the quality of trainees my facility has had lately. And the amount of scheming of seen so they won’t certify so they can keep their weekends off and work 9-5 and have the holidays off and not be CIC

 

[PooseMaGoose]

Idk man. I’m just a bit jaded by the quality of trainees my facility has had lately. And the amount of scheming of seen so they won’t certify so they can keep their weekends off and work 9-5 and have the holidays off and not be CIC

I guess I'm just not familiar with what specific schemes there are to avoid certification, but there needs to be accountability to get fucks like that up and out. Either progress through training or resign. It probably takes a willing POS trainee concurrent with apathy from the training team/management/facility to allow shit like that to become pervasive. But again, I'm not familiar with the specifics of how people do this sort of thing.