Class E Airspace

[ashton_cali]

TLDR: Can we depart an aircraft from an airport when a missed approach fix is 8 miles away from it.


Had a guy get dinged in the lab and we keep getting different answers for a solution.

In this scenario we have two Class E airports; Airport B is 16 miles southwest of Airport A.

Aircraft A is on an RNAV 22 approach to Airport A. Aircraft B departs Airport B Runway 09, but is given a 300 heading.

Aircraft A does a missed approach procedure which entails a turn at a fix 8 miles northeast of Airport B.

One controller says it's fine because the fix is 8 miles from the Airport B. One controller says its not because you have to protect 5 miles from each aircraft and there is no way to know far east Aircraft B will go before heading 300.

I think we don't depart the guy because we should protect 5 miles each aircraft. However still getting answers from different folks saying we can because the aircraft should start flying heading 300 right away, and not 3 miles to the northeast before turning, therefore not violating airspace.

Any answers are highly appreciated.

 

[accskp]

What is the holding at the missed approach fix? I agree that you should not release Aircraft B until you can "prove" separation from aircraft A. Now you could issue restrictions to aircraft B to remain clear of the missed approach procedure of aircraft A.

 

[ashton_cali]

What is the holding at the missed approach fix? I agree that you should not release Aircraft B until you can "prove" separation from aircraft A. Now you could issue restrictions to aircraft B to remain clear of the missed approach procedure of aircraft A.

Climb 2700 direct fix, turn right to 4000 and hold at another fix.

A betteer question to ask is can you give a clearance for an aircraft to fly heading 300 right away after departure, or do we have to assume that they will use all 5 miles radius of the airport and just not depart the guy because it would overlap the turn at the fix where the other aircraft will turn?

 

[32andBelow]

Is this radar or nor radar? you have to plot out the course of each airplane on a map and then see if their protected airspace overlaps if its a non radar center environment.

If the protected airspace 4 miles on rather side of both routes never overlaps then it is legal. If it overlaps at any point then it’s illegal.

 

[GroundClutter]

Class E surface area at either?

Any ODP's?

Also, if it's uncontrolled then I don't care what runway they say they're using. You can't base separation on it. The pilot may be an idiot or change runways prior to departing. The argument of how long they'll fly before turning on the heading, barring an ODP, is moot since you're protecting airspace.

If it's non-radar on both aircraft or only on the departure you're protecting 4nm on either side of the route, 5 miles is radar.

Just point the guy the opposite direction from the holding aircraft. If you want to be fancy, leaving whatever altitude is safe above the hold then as filed and send it.

 

[MJ]

there is no way to know far east Aircraft B will go before heading 300.

They can't just fly around indefinitely. As soon as the a/c enters controlled airspace it's required to comply with the the heading. If it's on a procedure, then the distance is known.

 

[ashton_cali]

Is this radar or nor radar? you have to plot out the course of each airplane on a map and then see if their protected airspace overlaps if its a non radar center environment.

If the protected airspace 4 miles on rather side of both routes never overlaps then it is legal. If it overlaps at any point then it’s illegal.

This is for radar, sorry for not clarifying.

They can't just fly around indefinitely. As soon as the a/c enters controlled airspace it's required to comply with the the heading. If it's on a procedure, then the distance is known.

Ok this makes sense. I was over thinking it because of some experiences I've seen of weekend warriors doing whatever they wanted, or being new at flying

Class E surface area at either?

Any ODP's?

Also, if it's uncontrolled then I don't care what runway they say they're using. You can't base separation on it. The pilot may be an idiot or change runways prior to departing. The argument of how long they'll fly before turning on the heading, barring an ODP, is moot since you're protecting airspace.

If it's non-radar on both aircraft or only on the departure you're protecting 4nm on either side of the route, 5 miles is radar.

Just point the guy the opposite direction from the holding aircraft. If you want to be fancy, leaving whatever altitude is safe above the hold then as filed and send it.

Thanks for this explaination. Your last sentence is basically what the training supervisor said today. Prove you separated them and you are good.

Appreciate you guys for your responses and feedback

 

[rhombus]

TLDR: Can we depart an aircraft from an airport when a missed approach fix is 8 miles away from it.


Had a guy get dinged in the lab and we keep getting different answers for a solution.

In this scenario we have two Class E airports; Airport B is 16 miles southwest of Airport A.

Aircraft A is on an RNAV 22 approach to Airport A. Aircraft B departs Airport B Runway 09, but is given a 300 heading.

Aircraft A does a missed approach procedure which entails a turn at a fix 8 miles northeast of Airport B.

One controller says it's fine because the fix is 8 miles from the Airport B. One controller says its not because you have to protect 5 miles from each aircraft and there is no way to know far east Aircraft B will go before heading 300.

I think we don't depart the guy because we should protect 5 miles each aircraft. However still getting answers from different folks saying we can because the aircraft should start flying heading 300 right away, and not 3 miles to the northeast before turning, therefore not violating airspace.

Any answers are highly appreciated.

A right turn to 300 as opposed to a left turn 300 would buy you more space. I guess it wouldn’t matter if they don’t turn soon after departure anyway

 

[Ztron]

They won’t begin the 300 heading until they enter controlled airspace. Class E airspace might begin at 700’ AGL, or it could begin at 1,200’ AGL. Check your sectional chart. However long it takes the aircraft to get above 700/1,200’ before they take the 300 heading will likely vary depending on the plane. Nawm sayin?

 

[GroundClutter]

This is for radar, sorry for not clarifying.

You may be in radar labs but those are still non-radar departure procedures. There isn't a plane just a chunk of airspace.

My part of the country is pretty flat with few if any ODP's or higher MIA's due only to transmission towers.

From the AIM:

"5-2-9 e.

1. What criteria is used to provide obstruction clearance during departure?
Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (FPNM), unless required to level off by a crossing restriction, until the minimum IFR altitude."

With that in mind, outside an ODP requiring higher altitudes or gradients, you can be sure of when the aircraft is expected to turn on course or fly a assigned heading.

They won’t begin the 300 heading until they enter controlled airspace. Class E airspace might begin at 700’ AGL, or it could begin at 1,200’ AGL. Check your sectional chart. However long it takes the aircraft to get above 700/1,200’ before they take the 300 heading will likely vary depending on the plane. Nawm sayin?

"via when entering controlled airspace..." is only to allow us to issue departure instructions at a field without a surface area. You can't assign a heading in uncontrolled airspace unless the pilot requests it. The pilot can turn to that heading below 700agl (shaded magenta on the chart) or 1200agl we just can't instruct them to.

 

[MJ]

I was over thinking it

nah, it's a good question. it just has no explicit answer like most stuff does, so you kinda have to intuit from other requirements. Departure is responsible for themselves until they get into controlled airspace which is what makes this a bit confusing, but they still have to climb like any other IFR departure, as GroundClutter cited above, and once they're in controlled airspace it's no different than any other a/c.

 

[DhruvK]

Are the Es surface areas? if so, you can assign the departure a runway with turns which implies the heading gets flown immediately after departure (400’ AGL if no ODP exists) or completion of the ODP if one exists.

 

[NotKC]

You can not issue a runway assignment to an aircraft at an uncontrolled airport. Technically the airport is class G. Hence the phraseology "when entering controlled airspace" also don't specify direction of turn.

 

[32andBelow]

You can not issue a runway assignment to an aircraft at an uncontrolled airport. Technically the airport is class G. Hence the phraseology "when entering controlled airspace" also don't specify direction of turn.

Unless there’s an ODP that only goes off one runway. But it’s kind of a technicality. But you likely wouldn’t issue a heading at an airport like that

 

[DhruvK]

You can not issue a runway assignment to an aircraft at an uncontrolled airport. Technically the airport is class G. Hence the phraseology "when entering controlled airspace" also don't specify direction of turn.

There are plenty of airports out there which are Class E at the surface at which you can absolutely assign runway or direction of departure and turns with pilot concurrence. 7110.65 4-3-2 c.1(b).

 

[NotKC]

I stand corrected