Visual separation on an Instrument approach

[tmdarlan]

My facility is discussing wether or not you can for example: tell an aircraft on an ILS approach to maintain visual seperation from A. The preceeding aircraft on an ils. Or B. Some random vfr/ifr target they are going to over fly.
I feel like you can. Just like any other application of visual. A little weird in A. Because you can just clear for the visual approach. But say they needed the ils for whatever reason.

The argument against is that if they are on an approach they arent able to maneuver to avoid the aircraft. Which seams silly to me. They can maneuver. It may create an unstable approach. But they can turn or climb or whatever if it comes to that.

Can anyone provide any reference that specifically says yes or no you can do this?

 

[rhombus]

Oh duh. Yeah 100% then tower applied visual all day lol

All day erryday unless wake is involved. Then it’s pilot applied visual or loss

 

[DankVectorz]

We’re not talking about approach controllers here. We’re talking about tower controllers working aircraft that are already established on final and talking to the tower. Maybe that’s where the confusion is

Until you said this there was no indication it was only referring to tower controllers.

 

[bravounite33]

An IFR at 16000 is not the same as an IFR on final. Like I said if it’s legal fine, I think it’s sketchy and wouldn’t work like that. Cleared ILS, maintain visual separation (bc I’m about to have a deal), contact tower.

1. APPROACH SEPARATION RESPONSIBILITY
2. The radar controller performing the approach control function is responsible for separation of radar arrivals unless visual separation is provided by the tower, or a letter of agreement/facility directive authorizes otherwise. Radar final controllers ensure that established separation is maintained between aircraft under their control and other aircraft established on the same final approach course.

*unless provided by the tower (not the pilot)

Visual separation is a form of separation. As a radar controller, I must provide radar separation OR visual separation the entire way down the final. IF the tower is authorized to use visual separation, then my responsibility for radar or visual separation ends when the tower is able to provide.

Wake turbulence is by far the most common reason I hear visual separation being used on the final (including keeping them on the instrument approach). The pilot accepting the visual separation instruction is taking the responsibility of dealing with the wake from the controller (they can stay higher on the approach, they can slow down, or they can do absolutely nothing if they are comfortable with it). Either way, it's not my responsibility anymore when they accepted the clearance.

 

[rhombus]

Until you said this there was no indication it was only referring to tower controllers.

True. Rules are still the same for pilot applied vis sep though. Clearing the second airplane for a visual approach is overkill

 

[slater]

Tower advertising ILS on a nice day. Large on ILS 5 mile final doing 160. Local BE350 on a base also expecting ILS but catching up because they do. Let the local Kaingair pilot fly thier plane and adjust based on visual separation while still running the ILS. This helps you if you have another large behind the kingair on final and running a squeeze play. IJS. Works all the time.

 

[COWTOWN]

This is common practice all day at airports that have parallel final's not 2500 feet apart. The planes wont hit, but they will keep going their way on final on their instrument approach with less than 3 miles. Perfectly acceptable and legal.

 

[DidYouDoYourNATPRO]

I'm convinced everyone saying this isn't ok is prior military and "just doesn't like it" but can't reference any rules or explain how it's bad

fwiw I'm a pilot and do it often, usually with adjacent finals when it's hazy but not IFR. Let the planes fly how they want to, not with our arbitrary separation criteria we're so proud of for some reason

 

[slater]

I'm convinced everyone saying this isn't ok is prior military and "just doesn't like it" but can't reference any rules or explain how it's bad

fwiw I'm a pilot and do it often, usually with adjacent finals when it's hazy but not IFR. Let the planes fly how they want to, not with our arbitrary separation criteria we're so proud of for some reason

It's a treat watching both finals cross the threshold at the same time. 😀