D-Side For Life?

[N737ER]

Not sure why anyone has to ask to be trained. Where I work you show up and get into a training rotation. You train 4-6 hours every day.

Maybe I should rephrase/change that: The individual never questions why they aren't training on any particular day

 

[ClearanceClarence]

Not sure why anyone has to ask to be trained. Where I work you show up and get into a training rotation. You train 4-6 hours every day.

For us, it’s usually a staffing issue. Training a D side takes a CPC out of the numbers, and when you’re short staffed to begin with, it makes it difficult to hit more than a few hours for most trainees.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

It's disgusting that 3hrs a day is acceptable...when I trained (at two Zs) I personally thought anything less than 4 was a bad day...regardless of what certs I already had. A lot of trainers here don't seem bothered by taking every break offered, even if it means skipping busy traffic: I've routinely said "Where's a training team when you need one."

My area has someone who has no business being a controller. They were up to their last dozen hours on their current position, and are back to article xx hours. They already had free hours after the last covid training stoppage. Person barely gets any consistent training or even asks to be trained, and when they do, are trained by the one person in the area who scarcely writes anything on training sheets. Even if they went to a TRB, they are coming back; a supe failed to give them a skills check 9mos ago. This person is already a shitbag controller (who has long since proven the ability to drag down the performance of those around them), with a shitbag attitude, but unfortunately they are going to keep getting hours until they get certified becuase no one can follow whatever proper procedure is at this point.

It's interesting that I've heard more of the "process" protecting these types, versus those who put effort in and honestly try.

If you have a trainee like that you need to get everyone to make sure they following the training order to a T. Make sure you correctly fill out all training reports and do monthly training team meets and whatever skill checks are called now. Without properly documenting everything washing someone out can be difficult. The whole point of a TRB is to assess whether the training order was followed correctly, not really to evaluate the trainee unless everything was done correctly.

 

[MKK]

Or you can be like me. I kept getting put into staffing frequently by CICs when I had a few certs when I should have been training. I would go on break and bang the rest of the shift ??

 

[Phillytroll69]

If you have a trainee like that you need to get everyone to make sure they following the training order to a T. Make sure you correctly fill out all training reports and do monthly training team meets and whatever skill checks are called now. Without properly documenting everything washing someone out can be difficult. The whole point of a TRB is to assess whether the training order was followed correctly, not really to evaluate the trainee unless everything was done correctly.

This is the whole circle though-if things were followed would they need a review board?

 

[DankVectorz]

Am I the only person who thinks it’s counterproductive to have a trainee training when traffic is slow, at least after they have some experience in the position? All they’re doing is burning hours while not learning anything. Getting 3 hours a day every day doesn’t mean shit if 75% of those hours were while running a 20 rate.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Am I the only person who thinks it’s counterproductive to have a trainee training when traffic is slow, at least after they have some experience in the position? All they’re doing is burning hours while not learning anything. Getting 3 hours a day every day doesn’t mean shit if 75% of those hours were while running a 20 rate.

If most of your traffic is that then that's the routine moderate and they should be certified

 

[Mike Kilo]

Am I the only person who thinks it’s counterproductive to have a trainee training when traffic is slow, at least after they have some experience in the position? All they’re doing is burning hours while not learning anything. Getting 3 hours a day every day doesn’t mean shit if 75% of those hours were while running a 20 rate.

100% with ya on this. It’s a joke and doesn’t help the trainee nor a newly credited CPC. I brought this up during my training with my team agreeing 30% of my hours were wasted on nothing. The OM said “you need to learn how to work the slow stuff too” lol. That’s how out of touch they are I guess.

 

[Phanatical]

100% with ya on this. It’s a joke and doesn’t help the trainee nor a newly credited CPC. I brought this up during my training with my team agreeing 30% of my hours were wasted on nothing. The OM said “you need to learn how to work the slow stuff too” lol. That’s how out of touch they are I guess.

If that was the average traffic for that time and day of the week, I really don’t know what the problem is. You can’t just hope a trainee appears for the one time that position gets overloaded.

 

[kombucha23]

Training on slow traffic is a good opportunity to show you aren’t making minor mistakes when there’s nothing going on. The little stuff, imo. When it’s busy and you’re in the zone, a slip up here or there is understandable. But if you’re screwing up stuff when it’s slow, then it does highlight other deficiencies so it’s still valuable time. Obviously there’s a limit to how much should be burned that way, but if you only train on busy traffic, you’re gonna be waiting a long while to get done.

 

[32andBelow]

Am I the only person who thinks it’s counterproductive to have a trainee training when traffic is slow, at least after they have some experience in the position? All they’re doing is burning hours while not learning anything. Getting 3 hours a day every day doesn’t mean shit if 75% of those hours were while running a 20 rate.

No it’s a good time to actually learn and apply a rule without distractions. I do agree that after a certain point when you have proven you know all the rules and various techniques that you should prove you can do it while working busy traffic.

after you have hit mins then you can be more picky about when you train. Before mins you should train as much as possible

 

[Mike Kilo]

If that was the average traffic for that time and day of the week, I really don’t know what the problem is. You can’t just hope a trainee appears for the one time that position gets overloaded.

It’s not hope when we have traffic management tools that tell us when it’s busy. If a normal push is 100 departing aircraft in a half hour and you’re having me work 5 departing aircraft in an hour and a half session you are wasting hours. People need to work the busy stuff to progress.

Training on slow traffic is a good opportunity to show you aren’t making minor mistakes when there’s nothing going on. The little stuff, imo. When it’s busy and you’re in the zone, a slip up here or there is understandable. But if you’re screwing up stuff when it’s slow, then it does highlight other deficiencies so it’s still valuable time. Obviously there’s a limit to how much should be burned that way, but if you only train on busy traffic, you’re gonna be waiting a long while to get done.

Everyone starts on slow traffic and this can be taken care of then. Yes people screw up when it’s slow but the need to build people up to the busier traffic level is far more important. The seasoning time after certification is when you take care of the rest. Seasoning doesn’t work if the individual hasn’t worked enough busy traffic to build the necessary skills.

We aren’t talking during the first part of training here. Talking after 30% of hours used. Before that go team on slow shit and discuss whatever while you have time.

 

[DankVectorz]

but if you only train on busy traffic, you’re gonna be waiting a long while to get done

And if half your hours are wasted on slow shit and suddenly your hours are up and you’re not good enough on the busy stuff to certify yet then you’re gone, wishing you hadn’t spent so much time proving you could work the slow stuff. And at lots of places the pushes are pretty regular on when they happen. I used to change my schedule almost every week to see as many of them as possible when I was training.

 

[Raise when?]

100% with ya on this. It’s a joke and doesn’t help the trainee nor a newly credited CPC. I brought this up during my training with my team agreeing 30% of my hours were wasted on nothing. The OM said “you need to learn how to work the slow stuff too” lol. That’s how out of touch they are I guess.

You work the traffic that is there. You don’t just wait for the 5% that is busy

 

[Mike Kilo]

You work the traffic that is there. You don’t just wait for the 5% that is busy

Depends where you are. My 5% is more like 60%. Easy to shuffle a break and hit busier traffic. You do people zero favors wasting hours on nothing unless they are ready for cert and need minimums. I guess if all you care about is churning people out so you can leave and not making sure they are ready then go team. Get that training quota!

 

[Dolan]

Depends where you are. My 5% is more like 60%. Easy to shuffle a break and hit busier traffic. You do people zero favors wasting hours on nothing unless they are ready for cert and need minimums. I guess if all you care about is churning people out so you can leave and not making sure they are ready then go team. Get that training quota!

Normal traffic for many, many facilities is "essentially nothing" and you're not doing your trainees any favors waiting for some weird ass push that half the CPC's there would struggle with.

Then when they inevitably get their ass kicked you yell "a-ha! Told you they weren't ready!"

And people wonder why so many trainees are salty

 

[Mike Kilo]

Normal traffic for many, many facilities is "essentially nothing" and you're not doing your trainees any favors waiting for some weird ass push that half the CPC's there would struggle with.

Then when they inevitably get their ass kicked you yell "a-ha! Told you they weren't ready!"

And people wonder why so many trainees are salty

I’m not talking about normal traffic. I’m talking about traffic periods that are slow. Whatever that is for your facility. And I’m talking scheduled traffic vs a vfr tower that can blow up on a random day and time. I’m not talking about waiting all winter for traffic.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’d rather not waste hours and train another month than cert and look like a complete retarded jackass when I get busy alone.

 

[DankVectorz]

Then when they inevitably get their ass kicked

So you’d rather that happen when they’re CPC? We’re seeing it now with some new CPC’s who mostly trained and certified on covid traffic and now that things are almost back to normal they’re suddenly realizing maybe they weren’t quite ready yet.

I’m not saying ONLY train on the busy stuff, but putting a trainee in at 0630 with 5 planes in the total airspace combined just to say they got training done is a waste.

 

[Dolan]

So you’d rather that happen when they’re CPC? We’re seeing it now with some new CPC’s who mostly trained and certified on covid traffic and now that things are almost back to normal they’re suddenly realizing maybe they weren’t quite ready yet.

I’m not saying ONLY train on the busy stuff, but putting a trainee in at 0630 with 5 planes in the total airspace combined just to say they got training done is a waste.

Of course. You think it's better getting your ass kicked with a trainer also barking at you in addition to the pilots? The ability to deal with the busy stuff is learned as a CPC, not as a trainee

 

[Raise when?]

Depends where you are. My 5% is more like 60%. Easy to shuffle a break and hit busier traffic. You do people zero favors wasting hours on nothing unless they are ready for cert and need minimums. I guess if all you care about is churning people out so you can leave and not making sure they are ready then go team. Get that training quota!

Need trainers that give a damn too. So many are apathetic