Issuing an initial heading to be flown off sats (En Route)

[corn4ahead]

So I have been a terminal controller for years at multiple facilities. Now, I am training at a Z. One of my lows owns to the ground and I am being told that we cannot issue headings off satellite airports when issuing a release.

All day, everyday my clearances off sats were "N12345, RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE, ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE, FLY HEADING (XXX), CLEARANCE VOID IF NOT OFF BY XXXX"

I have been told I cannot issue the heading because I am issuing a heading below the MIA. I call BS but the only other response I get is "this isn't approach anymore."" We have different rules and the center."

Thoughts?

 

[32andBelow]

Does the airport have an ODP? If there is nothing saying your heading is safe for terrain then you cannot issue it.

 

[eltors0]

4-3-2, c, 1., (c)

Within the context you’ve given, you are correct. Whoever is telling you that you cannot is just stubborn and wrong.

 

[GO]

Similar situation. Our center doesn’t allow that as well since our radar screens do not depict every obstacle or terrain in the area of the airport. For us it isn’t a huge thing so I didn’t press it but they have us give via whatever the first fix is on the route for the departure clearance. They are concerned about the #2 note so they put it back on the pilot by not giving a specific heading. They depart as needed and call up direct to whatever fix and climbing

Maybe here they would allow leaving whatever MIA/MVA altitude, fly heading… this would ensure that the pilot is responsible for the obstacles on departure/terrain and you get the heading you want. Just don’t need it that often here. This sat airports have no control tower or ODP either in my case.

5−8−2. INITIAL HEADING
a. Before departure ,assign the initial to be flown if a departing aircraft is to be vectored immediately after takeoff.
PHRASEOLOGY−
FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
TURN LEFT/RIGHT, HEADING (degrees).
NOTE−
1. TERMINAL. A purpose for the heading is not necessary, since pilots operating in a radar environment associate assigned headings with vectors to their planned route of flight.
2. ATC assumes responsibility for terrain and obstacle avoidance when IFR aircraft are below the minimum IFR altitude (MVA, MIA, MEA) and are taken off departure/ missed approach procedures, or are issued go−around instructions, except when utilizing a Diverse Vector Area (DVA) with an aircraft departing from the surface.

 

[32andBelow]

Similar situation. Our center doesn’t allow that as well since our radar screens do not depict every obstacle or terrain in the area of the airport. For us it isn’t a huge thing so I didn’t press it but they have us give via whatever the first fix is on the route for the departure clearance. They are concerned about the #2 note so they put it back on the pilot by not giving a specific heading. They depart as needed and call up direct to whatever fix and climbing

Maybe here they would allow leaving whatever MIA/MVA altitude, fly heading… this would ensure that the pilot is responsible for the obstacles on departure/terrain and you get the heading you want. Just don’t need it that often here. This sat airports have no control tower either in my case.

5−8−2. INITIAL HEADING
a. Before departure ,assign the initial to be flown if a departing aircraft is to be vectored immediately after takeoff.
PHRASEOLOGY−
FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
TURN LEFT/RIGHT, HEADING (degrees).
NOTE−
1. TERMINAL. A purpose for the heading is not necessary, since pilots operating in a radar environment associate assigned headings with vectors to their planned route of flight.
2. ATC assumes responsibility for terrain and obstacle avoidance when IFR aircraft are below the minimum IFR altitude (MVA, MIA, MEA) and are taken off departure/ missed approach procedures, or are issued go−around instructions, except when utilizing a Diverse Vector Area (DVA) with an aircraft departing from the surface.

That sounds more of like a vector leaving an altitude and you can’t really assign a vector In a non radar environment which most en route airports are

 

[GO]

That sounds more of like a vector leaving an altitude and you can’t really assign a vector In a non radar environment which most en route airports are

That makes sense. I don’t use it but was just brainstorming without looking heavily into regulations. Fair point

 

[GroundClutter]

I had people when I started Rside training at a center tell me that I couldn't tell a guy picking up his IFR airborne "cleared to xxx as filed" with out knowing their altitude and making sure they were above the MIA. Their take was you were assigning a heading to be flown below the MIA. So your story isn't surprising.

You can absolutely assign a heading to be flown "via when entering controlled airspace". Take in to account any DP's or ODP's but that's why there is requirements for pilot concurrence. You're not assigning a take off turn or direction so the AC can remain clear of obstructions taking in to account their aircraft climb performance.

 

[corn4ahead]

I had people when I started Rside training at a center tell me that I couldn't tell a guy picking up his IFR airborne "cleared to xxx as filed" with out knowing their altitude and making sure they were above the MIA. Their take was you were assigning a heading to be flown below the MIA. So your story isn't surprising.

You can absolutely assign a heading to be flown "via when entering controlled airspace". Take in to account any DP's or ODP's but that's why there is requirements for pilot concurrence. You're not assigning a take off turn or direction so the AC can remain clear of obstructions taking in to account their aircraft climb performance.

Right, my point is that pilots are required to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance until “entering controlled airspace.”

What I have taken so far from the responses, is that it’s up for interpretation lol. Nothing really clear

Does the airport have an ODP? If there is nothing saying your heading is safe for terrain then you cannot issue it.

even if it did, by me saying “when entering controlled airspace” it doesn’t delete the ODP.

 

[32andBelow]

Right, my point is that pilots are required to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance until “entering controlled airspace.”

What I have taken so far from the responses, is that it’s up for interpretation lol. Nothing really clear

even if it did, by me saying “when entering controlled airspace” it doesn’t delete the ODP.

What if the ODP goes above controlled airspace. Controlled airspace could start at like 700 feet. So how could you comply with both? We aren’t allowed to just give a heading towards a mountain

 

[atc12bsthrowaway]

So I have been a terminal controller for years at multiple facilities. Now, I am training at a Z. One of my lows owns to the ground and I am being told that we cannot issue headings off satellite airports when issuing a release.

All day, everyday my clearances off sats were "N12345, RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE, ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE, FLY HEADING (XXX), CLEARANCE VOID IF NOT OFF BY XXXX"

I have been told I cannot issue the heading because I am issuing a heading below the MIA. I call BS but the only other response I get is "this isn't approach anymore."" We have different rules and the center."

Thoughts?

My approach can’t do this either, SID/ODP/DVA are the only options we have. We also have a high terrain everywhere which drives this.

 

[Termine]

Chapter 4 says you can do this, provided the aircraft is within controlled airspace (Class E).

Chapter 5 says you can't do this, "except as authorized... for radar departures" (5-6-1c). There is an entire section on Radar Departures (5-8 ), but everything from 5-8-3 onward applies to terminal facilities only.

Back in 5-6 there is a paragraph on vectors below the MVA/MIA, but the really permissive part (5-6-3a) only applies at terminal facilities. At enroute facilities you must have a DVA or a radar SID in order to vector below the MVA/MIA. Not sure how common those are at non-towered airports.

If you don't have a DVA or radar SID I can see both arguments, honestly. If you do have a DVA or radar SID then 5-6-3c or 5-6-3d permit issuing the vector.

 

[GroundClutter]

Right, my point is that pilots are required to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance until “entering controlled airspace.”

What I have taken so far from the responses, is that it’s up for interpretation lol. Nothing really clear.

We're in agreement here but I don't think it's unclear.

If you've been to different facilities then you know how this works. Do what your trainer says; as a CPC-IT I think you have more ground to stand on to defend or explain your position but ultimately it's their comfort level that's in question not the legality of the clearance.

 

[GroundClutter]

I take it that many people do not realize there's a plethora of information buried in this website including a easily searchable and well edited 7110.65.

More importantly there's an area in the wiki with official interpretations.

Uncontrolled airport departure control instructions

 

[GroundClutter]

Chapter 4 says you can do this, provided the aircraft is within controlled airspace (Class E).

Chapter 5 says you can't do this, "except as authorized... for radar departures" (5-6-1c). There is an entire section on Radar Departures (5-8 ), but everything from 5-8-3 onward applies to terminal facilities only.

Back in 5-6 there is a paragraph on vectors below the MVA/MIA, but the really permissive part (5-6-3a) only applies at terminal facilities. At enroute facilities you must have a DVA or a radar SID in order to vector below the MVA/MIA. Not sure how common those are at non-towered airports.

If you don't have a DVA or radar SID I can see both arguments, honestly. If you do have a DVA or radar SID then 5-6-3c or 5-6-3d permit issuing the vector.

It's a non-radar clearance off the ground. These aren't radar departures nor are they being vectored (they're not radar identified) so chapter 5 or anything requiring a DVA or Radar SID doesn't apply.

 

[Mr.Tickles]

If the satellites are class E and you have pilot concurrence then you 100 percent can issue headings. No one in my area would agree with me but most of them are also the type to say that trainees should know the book better than them.

4-3-2

Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area* specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot's concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.


Follow up question. Can you issue a runaway to depart on an uncontrolled field? Haven’t been able to find that one way or another in .65

For example: Skywest3132 depart runway 31 fly runway heading.

This would be a class E airport at a center.

 

[Phanatical]

If the satellites are class E and you have pilot concurrence then you 100 percent can issue headings. No one in my area would agree with me but most of them are also the type to say that trainees should know the book better than them.

4-3-2

Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area* specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot's concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.


Follow up question. Can you issue a runaway to depart on an uncontrolled field? Haven’t been able to find that one way or another in .65

For example: Skywest3132 depart runway 31 fly runway heading.

This would be a class E airport at a center.

That would imply you are providing positive control on the runways when in the radar environment. You only control the airspace and can only issue headings off of the airport.

 

[GroundClutter]

Follow up question. Can you issue a runaway to depart on an uncontrolled field? Haven’t been able to find that one way or another in .65

For example: Skywest3132 depart runway 31 fly runway heading.

This would be a class E airport at a center.

At a field with an E surface area you can assign the direction of the departure turn to be flown immediately after takeoff since it's controlled airspace to the ground.

You won't find assigning a runway for departure in the book because you can't at an uncontrolled field. I guess technically if you assign an ODP that only is applicable to one runway then effectively yes you are.

 

[corn4ahead]

We're in agreement here but I don't think it's unclear.

If you've been to different facilities then you know how this works. Do what your trainer says; as a CPC-IT I think you have more ground to stand on to defend or explain your position but ultimately it's their comfort level that's in question not the legality of the clearance.

For sure. I don’t see why it would be different in an en route environment vs terminal. I definitely know what works lol.

 

[corn4ahead]

If the satellites are class E and you have pilot concurrence then you 100 percent can issue headings. No one in my area would agree with me but most of them are also the type to say that trainees should know the book better than them.

4-3-2

Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area* specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot's concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.


Follow up question. Can you issue a runaway to depart on an uncontrolled field? Haven’t been able to find that one way or another in .65

For example: Skywest3132 depart runway 31 fly runway heading.

This would be a class E airport at a center.

My previous facility had 1 airport that was class E to the ground. We would say “ fly runway heading, if unable advise” or we would ask “are you able to fly runway heading.”

Never an issue. The non class E to the ground, we would just issue a heading to be flown when entering controlled airspace.

 

[rhombus]

Follow up question. Can you issue a runaway to depart on an uncontrolled field? Haven’t been able to find that one way or another in .65

For example: Skywest3132 depart runway 31 fly runway heading.

This would be a class E airport at a center.

Assigning a runway is a control instruction which is a big no-no for an uncontrolled airport. Best you can do is ask what runway they want and provide the release for it