Non Radar separation uncontrollable airport

[Mr.Tickles]

Looking for some clarification here in regards to uncontrolled airports due to conflicting opinions in my area. Most are of the opinion that uncontrolled airports are strictly one in and one out. As in once an approach clearance has been given no departures can get out on an IFR release barring a VFR climb.

I’ve not been able to find or been directed to where in the .65 this is specifically mentioned as of yet.

In 6-3-1(Nonradar) it seems like you’d still be able to release departures after giving an approach clearance as long as they comply with the 5 or 3 minute rule for the arrivals estimated time at the airport. I’ve been told by several people that this only applies to towered airports.

Here are the two rules.

D.When takeoff direction differs by at least 45 degrees from the reciprocal of the final approach course, the departing aircraft takes off 3 minutes before the arriving aircraft is estimated at the airport.

E. When takeoff direction is other than in subparagraph d, the departing aircraft takes off so that it is established on a course diverging by at least 45 degrees from the reciprocal of the final approach course 5 minutes before the arriving aircraft is estimated at the airport or before it starts procedure turn.

Do these rules only apply to a towered airport?

Anyone have any more specific references or knowledge that support one or the other?

 

[32andBelow]

You can run 3 minute and 5 minutes rules at uncontrolled airports. However you need to be able to assign the runway which you can do with a departure procedure that only goes off 1 runway. Or if you have a surface area you can assign the departing runway.

If the departure goes off both runways you still may be able to execute a 5 minute rule if both directions comply with the requirements of a 5 minute rule

In short a tower is not required but the ability to assign takeoff direction is to make the rules work correctly.

You can run non radar departure departure rules using the same premises totally non radar

 

[Termine]

Specifically for two arrivals, 4-8-1f applies:

Except when applying radar procedures, timed or visual approaches, clear an aircraft for an approach to an airport when the preceding aircraft has landed or canceled IFR flight plan.

For two departures there's nothing quite as explicit as that. 4-3-4 states:

Assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, or release times to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow. Departures from an airport without an operating control tower must be issued either a departure release, a hold for release, or a release time.

Departure restrictions are one option ("or") that you can use to "separate departures from other traffic," which supports 32's opinion that you would be allowed to use non-radar departure restrictions even at non-towered airports. The next sentence says that non-towered airport departures must be issued a time, but you could read that to mean they have to receive a time as well (to start the timer for SAR procedures) and the restrictions, not the times, can be used for separation. The "or" in the first sentence works against that reading, IMO.

It would be very difficult to separate an arrival from a departure because the arrival may be circling to land on another runway than the one aligned with the approach. Circling instructions, and by extension straight-in landing instructions, may only be issued at airports with an operating control tower (4-8-6a). However the Note at 4-8-6b points out that "In some cases a SIAP may otherwise restrict circling approach maneuvers" so if you made sure to assign an approach that did not allow circling you might have something of a leg to stand on, if you authorized a release on a separate runway and used non-radar rules to protect the arrival's missed approach path.

Overall it seems like a very iffy situation.

 

[32andBelow]

Specifically for two arrivals, 4-8-1f applies:


For two departures there's nothing quite as explicit as that. 4-3-4 states:

Departure restrictions are one option ("or") that you can use to "separate departures from other traffic," which supports 32's opinion that you would be allowed to use non-radar departure restrictions even at non-towered airports. The next sentence says that non-towered airport departures must be issued a time, but you could read that to mean they have to receive a time as well (to start the timer for SAR procedures) and the restrictions, not the times, can be used for separation. The "or" in the first sentence works against that reading, IMO.

It would be very difficult to separate an arrival from a departure because the arrival may be circling to land on another runway than the one aligned with the approach. Circling instructions, and by extension straight-in landing instructions, may only be issued at airports with an operating control tower (4-8-6a). However the Note at 4-8-6b points out that "In some cases a SIAP may otherwise restrict circling approach maneuvers" so if you made sure to assign an approach that did not allow circling you might have something of a leg to stand on, if you authorized a release on a separate runway and used non-radar rules to protect the arrival's missed approach path.

Overall it seems like a very iffy situation.

The 3 minute and 5 minute rule separates from the arrivals final approach course. So it doesn’t matter if they circle. It’ll still work if they circle as the separation is based on the guy being 3 minutes from the airport on the approach.

d. When takeoff direction differs by at least 45 degrees from the reciprocal of the final approach course, the departing aircraft takes off 3 minutes before the arriving aircraft is estimated at the airport.

What it comes down to is if you have the procedures built to support these rules. Some airports do especially in mountainous terrain. Some don’t. Or If you have surface area and are able to assign headings itll work

 

[slater]

Prior to reaching and reporting final approach fix. Clearance void times. Enter controlled airspace heading. Is there established ODP?

 

[Mr.Tickles]

You can run 3 minute and 5 minutes rules at uncontrolled airports. However you need to be able to assign the runway which you can do with a departure procedure that only goes off 1 runway. Or if you have a surface area you can assign the departing runway.

If the departure goes off both runways you still may be able to execute a 5 minute rule if both directions comply with the requirements of a 5 minute rule

In short a tower is not required but the ability to assign takeoff direction is to make the rules work correctly.

You can run non radar departure departure rules using the same premises totally non radar

That makes sense. Is there anywhere in the .65 that specifically states a tower isn’t required for use of non radar rules that you know of? I feel like it should be a given but with the amount of people i've spoken too who dont agree with your interpretation it's apparently not.

Specifically for two arrivals, 4-8-1f applies:


For two departures there's nothing quite as explicit as that. 4-3-4 states:

Departure restrictions are one option ("or") that you can use to "separate departures from other traffic," which supports 32's opinion that you would be allowed to use non-radar departure restrictions even at non-towered airports. The next sentence says that non-towered airport departures must be issued a time, but you could read that to mean they have to receive a time as well (to start the timer for SAR procedures) and the restrictions, not the times, can be used for separation. The "or" in the first sentence works against that reading, IMO.

It would be very difficult to separate an arrival from a departure because the arrival may be circling to land on another runway than the one aligned with the approach. Circling instructions, and by extension straight-in landing instructions, may only be issued at airports with an operating control tower (4-8-6a). However the Note at 4-8-6b points out that "In some cases a SIAP may otherwise restrict circling approach maneuvers" so if you made sure to assign an approach that did not allow circling you might have something of a leg to stand on, if you authorized a release on a separate runway and used non-radar rules to protect the arrival's missed approach path.

Overall it seems like a very iffy situation.

No debate with the two arrivals or the two departures.

6−3−1. SEPARATION MINIMA
Separate a departing aircraft from an arriving aircraft making an instrument approach to the same airport by using one of the following minima until vertical or lateral separation is achieved:

I do think this would rule out the use of a visual approach. Although theres no distinction between what types of approach that can be given to an aircraft when utilizing this rule. 32 made the point about the 3 and 5 minute rule depending in departure direction. If the aircraft departs within the standards set by the rule and the clearance given what would make it iffy?

 

[32andBelow]

Nope. And it wouldn’t say. If you comply with all parts of the rule then it’s legal. If it said control tower is required then if would say that. For some reason some center controllers think you can only do one in one out. Probably cus they have so many tracons below them.