Leaving NATCA outside January

[ncssailor]

You are right in there they stopped it because of the washout rates. But if you do a lot of digging, people will see that washout rates have not changed significantly since the new process.

Maybe training programs across the board need to be looked at further, ours sucks for getting the trainees quality classroom. They go into classroom click though PowerPoint as fast as possible, go take your tests, plug in and expect to operate at CPC level with bad OJTI.
Maybe Natca doesn’t care about staffing issues because it’s job security for them and the controllers already in. If things were all running too well it would be a easier path to privatization.

 

[BDUB]

Some do, some don’t. Some go to the closest major for sims. Some don’t require sims at all

Some have sims at closest major facility but management refuses to allocate money to send trainees and their checkout times are a year and a half ??

Let me add on. What CPC is going to put in a 10hr day to go with trainees to these facilities. Literally 8hrs normal shift and 2hrs of comp time is an absolute joke of an incentive…

 

[CookieMonster]

They go into classroom click though PowerPoint as fast as possible, go take your tests, plug in and expect to operate at CPC level with bad OJTI.

The PowerPoints are terrible. The tests don’t get updated. Some of the airlines no longer exist or fly to that airport.

 

[32andBelow]

Some have sims at closest major facility but management refuses to allocate money to send trainees and their checkout times are a year and a half ??

Let me add on. What CPC is going to put in a 10hr day to go with trainees to these facilities. Literally 8hrs normal shift and 2hrs of comp time is an absolute joke of an incentive…

Idk just give them a gov car and 8 hours. What can they say?

Or maybe they should make a higher level tower class for kids to practice back in OKC

 

[BDUB]

Idk just give them a gov car and 8 hours. What can they say?

Or maybe they should make a higher level tower class for kids to practice back in OKC

You willing to go train trainees in a simulator hrs away for nothing?

A incentive : Extra pay a way out of facility SOMETHING would be nice. Instead it’s a smack in the face because those trainees just certify and bid the top 50 facilities in need in the NAS….

 

[32andBelow]

You willing to go train trainees in a simulator hrs away for nothing?

A incentive : Extra pay a way out of facility SOMETHING would be nice. Instead it’s a smack in the face because those trainees just certify and bid the top 50 facilities in need in the NAS….

Idk why can’t they just get contractor trainers like every high level facility has

 

[Robert_Boucher]

You are right in there they stopped it because of the washout rates. But if you do a lot of digging, people will see that washout rates have not changed significantly since the new process.

I agree with you, I just don't see them going back to that system. Obviously the system isn't perfect some OTS and prior experience would probably do fine at a bigger first facility, I just don't think the FAA or NATCA care to fix anything.

 

[jdatc]

Idk why can’t they just get contractor trainers like every high level facility has

Some places have great contract instructors such as recent Retirees who were good controllers who still care.

Most do not. They have people who are terribly out of date, or who sucked their whole career and now are contract instructors.

The best trainers generally are current good controllers on the floor. Of course that requires a minimum staffing to use them, but if you don’t incentivize it, why would they?

The Agency has the ability to do it, such as Back fill overtime to protect floor staffing and time off awards for the good controllers that volunteer.

But no manager is sticking their neck out for that. Also, no facility wants to admit that their current product is inadequate.

So here we are

 

[ChuckNovember]

If they stopped sending new hires straight to high level places and had a system that was efficient to actually move people up faster people wouldn’t be getting to 30+ Waiting on getting a transfer.
So saying that after a certain point there should be age discrimination? that would get real interesting if it could ever be found written in a email in any official capacity.

Nah I was seriously just stirring the pot. But it is harder to train once you get older, for sure. I have a CAMI study saved somewhere from decades ago that's conclusion was that age was the only statistically significant factor, but you can't do anything with that info since it's illegal.

 

[Oscar Golf]

The last couple pages turning into an NCEPT topic

Question: Would people rather take a chance to get picked up with a quicker release date (1 year) with the rules and percentages used for pickups/releases in place for NCEPT?
or
Would you have the the previous system (no percentages/rules used) more of a shot to get picked for facilities that are over the national average and you could get picked from a below 85% facility but longer release date like 2-3 years?

Also answering Bama question from the other thread you can’t expect people to not put in for high level facilities from 4, 5, 6, 7 facilities who want to go to 7, 8, 9 and NOT 11 and 12 facilities when you put a restriction to only staff to the national average then on top put a selection cap of only 2 people

 

[ChuckNovember]

The last couple pages turning into an NCEPT topic

Question: Would people rather take a chance to get picked up with a quicker release date (1 year) with the rules and percentages used for pickups/releases in place for NCEPT?
or
Would you have the the previous system (no percentages/rules used) more of a shot to get picked for facilities that are over the national average and you could get picked from a below 85% facility but longer release date like 2-3 years?

Also answering Bama question from the other thread you can’t expect people to not put in for high level facilities from 4, 5, 6, 7 facilities who want to go to 7, 8, 9 and NOT 11 and 12 facilities when you put a restriction to only staff to the national average then on top put a selection cap of only 2 people

Well since I'm 5 years into NCEPT with no hope in sight I think I'd take my chances with the old system.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

Well now you got a black hole where no one wants to go there cus there’s no point unless it happens to be the only facility where you want to live. I’m not saying to raise it all the way back to level 12. But 9 seems reasonable

A 9 should be reasonable for some to do but but not under the current training program they have going on there. Realistically there's always going to be black hole facilities, and some unfortunate person will have to go to a place where they don't want to be. I don't agree with it but there's no way to make OTS, Prior Exp, and CPCs happy.

 

[Oscar Golf]

Well since I'm 5 years into NCEPT with no hope in sight I think I'd take my chances with the old system.

Unless you really can’t hold out for your dream facility if you at a bad facility what is a 1 year release date compared to a 2-3 year release date if it’s more of a chance or even guaranteed? At least you not worried about if that time you going to get picked up and you get to go to your dream facility

 

[ChuckNovember]

Unless you really can’t hold out for your dream facility if you at a bad facility what is a 1 year release date compared to a 2-3 year release date if it’s more of a chance or even guaranteed? At least you not worried about if that time you going to get picked up and you get to go to your dream facility

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[Oscar Golf]

I don't understand what you're saying.

If people were guaranteed to go to a dream facility but with a 3 year release date I think most people would take it. People can plan ahead and not have to be caught up in trying to get picked up

People probably would take that over rolling the dice with NCEPT even with a way quicker release date of 1 year where the stars have to align even more

 

[Homsar]

Would you have the the previous system (no percentages/rules used) more of a shot to get picked for facilities that are over the national average and you could get picked from a below 85% facility but longer release date like 2-3 years?

This in a heartbeat. I’m tired of watching panels come and go where my facility can’t release anyone. I’d be halfway through that wait right now since the last time we could release, I think.

 

[Oscar Golf]

This in a heartbeat. I’m tired of watching panels come and go where my facility can’t release anyone. I’d be halfway through that wait right now since the last time we could release, I think.

Worry free too

 

[Termine]

Here's my completely uninformed unsolicited hot take:

Prior experience hires should face the same initial cap as Academy grads. Force the agency to truly staff the lower-level facilities to 100%+ and allow them to release to the higher facilities.

Initiate some sort of scale where higher-scoring Academy grads can get to higher-level facilities, and/or let people who score below 70% (say at least 55-60% maybe?) go to Level 4/5 facilities. The final few Academy problems are like Level 9 traffic, people work those problems and then get placed at backwater facilities that never see a tenth of that... seriously, a brain-dead monkey could certify on LC at my fac. Pass more people through, let them go to low-level facilities that are currently short on trainees. If they wash, send more.

Set a level cap on NCEPT, at least for Round 1. Make it four levels instead of three though. Gives people a chance to jump and see higher traffic but more importantly forces better staffing at the mid-level facilities. Still allows people to go from a 4 to a 12 with only one stepping stone.

Do something to at least give a semblance of respecting location preference. Service Area, District, whatever. Might not be perfect but anything is better than the current "take it or leave it" system.

Allow Center trainees who haven't started training yet to swap facilities, no questions asked. Might not be "fair" to everyone but if it prevents transfers down the line it's a win. More of a thing for last year during the COVID pauses, but even now trainees at Zs don't start classes immediately, do they?

 

[32andBelow]

Here's my completely uninformed unsolicited hot take:

Prior experience hires should face the same initial cap as Academy grads. Force the agency to truly staff the lower-level facilities to 100%+ and allow them to release to the higher facilities.

Initiate some sort of scale where higher-scoring Academy grads can get to higher-level facilities, and/or let people who score below 70% (say at least 55-60% maybe?) go to Level 4/5 facilities. The final few Academy problems are like Level 9 traffic, people work those problems and then get placed at backwater facilities that never see a tenth of that... seriously, a brain-dead monkey could certify on LC at my fac. Pass more people through, let them go to low-level facilities that are currently short on trainees. If they wash, send more.

Set a level cap on NCEPT, at least for Round 1. Make it four levels instead of three though. Gives people a chance to jump and see higher traffic but more importantly forces better staffing at the mid-level facilities. Still allows people to go from a 4 to a 12 with only one stepping stone.

Do something to at least give a semblance of respecting location preference. Service Area, District, whatever. Might not be perfect but anything is better than the current "take it or leave it" system.

Allow Center trainees who haven't started training yet to swap facilities, no questions asked. Might not be "fair" to everyone but if it prevents transfers down the line it's a win. More of a thing for last year during the COVID pauses, but even now trainees at Zs don't start classes immediately, do they?

Nope. The only thing center trainees do immediately is maps. Some sit for up to a year to see an instructor. More at ZNY

 

[ManBearPig]

The last couple pages turning into an NCEPT topic

Question: Would people rather take a chance to get picked up with a quicker release date (1 year) with the rules and percentages used for pickups/releases in place for NCEPT?
or
Would you have the the previous system (no percentages/rules used) more of a shot to get picked for facilities that are over the national average and you could get picked from a below 85% facility but longer release date like 2-3 years?

Also answering Bama question from the other thread you can’t expect people to not put in for high level facilities from 4, 5, 6, 7 facilities who want to go to 7, 8, 9 and NOT 11 and 12 facilities when you put a restriction to only staff to the national average then on top put a selection cap of only 2 people

Old system all the way. Put a 4 level cap in for terminal facilities, but no cap to jump to a center.