N90 forced move

[AO305]

Every single controller should be concerned with this issue. The FAA is setting the blueprint and setting a precedent to not follow the law for realignment of facilities and doing studies prior and then forcing controllers at their will whenever they see fit (section 804 and in the new bill section 623). Every controller should be asking why. On top of the fact that NY Tracon (as well as other tracons) were built and consolidated for a reason). NY specifically for safety with 3 big airports sharing a Class B. Do those reasons still not exist? It’s bad enough that barely anyone can transfer or move around due to staffing, and that we haven’t gotten raises or a new contract, but now they are also trying to force controllers to move involuntarily because of a ‘staffing issue’. Meanwhile the staffing they are forcing brings the EWR area back to what it was 4 years ago so really what’s the point? There’s staffing issues all over the country. Just think about if they decided a number of controllers from YOUR facility are told by the FAA that there’s a shorter facility a couple states away that needs staffing and you’re going there so you could fix their problems of not staffing these facilities over the years? Or to break up your up/down facility or Tracon and force controllers without doing any safety studies to justify it? Even with a bonus is it worth leaving your family and friends? Taking your kids out of their schools and away from their friends?

 

[GulfCharlie]

Through the information of others, I have done my best to bring attention to this matter. Unfortunately the sheer amount of dislike for N90 (some deserved and some not deserved) will override any long term concerns about the future. This will have a cause and effect which will, by my prediction, ripple across the NAS "in the name of safety" and lead to more consolidations. Sure with the new Reauthorization Bill the agency will have to "justify" it to Congress but the writing is on the wall...

Take my advice for what it is worth, N90 is only the beginning... Outsourcing and consolidation will be used as a method to shore up staffing and concentrate it where needed. Anyway my point is this, it might be a good time to start exploring or reading up on other FAA opportunities.

 

[ClearanceClarence]

This is 100% correct and the fact that NATCA isn’t screaming from the rooftops about this is appalling and unacceptable. We’re not in the fucking military. The government should not be allowed to just send employees who already have permanent assignments wherever they please to suit their own needs. People are already forced to places they don’t want to be when they’re hired. Now people are being forced to places they don’t want to be years into employment. All the while, if someone wants to move to another facility, they’re all but forbidden from doing so. Fuck dictator Witaker and fuck NATCA for sitting around and letting it happen. The employees being forced to move should sue both of them.

 

[Nothanks]

I wouldn’t say Natca is sitting around doing nothing. It is fair to say the agency threw everything possible at N90 over the years to fix their “staffing issue”. Lots of money, lots of incentives, priority bids/releases for a decade. And if you ask controllers at N90 what their working conditions are like…. “It’s not that bad, ya you work 6 days a week but it’s pretty decent” they go by their own set of rules there. This is the result of twisting the agency arm for 3 decades. I don’t agree with it, I think it should be stopped, but let’s not be naive as to the why.

 

[inthrewtheoutdor]

Well put, some Washington bureaucrat going to arbitrarily force free living American citizens to up and move citing staffing from 4 years ago even tho the sector they're trying to move literally doesn't have the staffing issue anymore. For some money that the brothers in N90 already make before the summer anyway. Slap in the face. Un-American.

Remember, they cited emergency circumstances to bypass the law (804) which NATCA under Rinaldi allowed without a fight. 4 years later the staffing crisis they claimed would shit the NAS down never happened and they still push on lawless. This would set precedent to lie, make up stats and do whatever they want, when they want.

Wake up people, NEB needs to say something and those running Should be screaming otherwise they dont deserve a vote.

I wouldn’t say Natca is sitting around doing nothing. It is fair to say the agency threw everything possible at N90 over the years to fix their “staffing issue”. Lots of money, lots of incentives, priority bids/releases for a decade. And if you ask controllers at N90 what their working conditions are like…. “It’s not that bad, ya you work 6 days a week but it’s pretty decent” they go by their own set of rules there. This is the result of twisting the agency arm for 3 decades. I don’t agree with it, I think it should be stopped, but let’s not be naive as to the why.

They never let a majority of the incentives play out. Takes years in the pipeline for certifications to begin showing success. N90 has the data that enhanced CIP and local bids of bonafide Long Islanders who want to make great money and stay local works, but as it started showing progress they shut it down and ignored reality so they could push on at breaking us up.

 

[Nothanks]

They never let a majority of the incentives play out. Takes years in the pipeline for certifications to begin showing success. N90 has the data that enhanced CIP and local bids of bonafide Long Islanders who want to make great money and stay local works, but as it started showing progress they shut it down and ignored reality so they could push on at breaking us up.

I don’t work there so obviously I wouldn’t know those details. It seems like when the forced moves became a thing that might really happen…. Checkouts increased dramatically

 

[inthrewtheoutdor]

I don’t work there so obviously I wouldn’t know those details. It seems like when the forced moves became a thing that might really happen…. Checkouts increased dramatically

Haters take, it was objectively going up prior. Then the guy currently in charge of the move Segelski, was ATM at N90 for a moment and completely threw out N90s newly improved and successful training program, implemented a 2-3 part, broken NDIS training program with massive errors in the material, purposely doubled and sometimes tripled training times in the middle of the working incentives, making training stall significantly, plus the 100+ trainees sent from TETRA that sat in classrooms waiting for years to start. Made it look like training times went up and called it a wash. NEB likely made some deal that FAA can do what they want it if fails and didn't have the balls to say anything else in the name of "collaboration".

So now the guy who sabotaged the improving success at N90, got put in charge of continuing to push a failed and unnecessary break-up of the building, and no one nationally wants to stand up for whats right publicly.

 

[Nothanks]

Haters take, it was objectively going up prior. Then the guy currently in charge of the move Segelski, was ATM at N90 for a moment and completely threw out N90s newly improved and successful training program, implemented a 2-3 part, broken NDIS training program with massive errors in the material, purposely doubled and sometimes tripled training times in the middle of the working incentives, making training stall significantly, plus the 100+ trainees sent from TETRA that sat in classrooms waiting for years to start. Made it look like training times went up and called it a wash. NEB likely made some deal that FAA can do what they want it if fails and didn't have the balls to say anything else in the name of "collaboration".

So now the guy who sabotaged the improving success at N90, got put in charge of continuing to push a failed and unnecessary break-up of the building, and no one nationally wants to stand up for whats right publicly.

Interesting insight/information. Thanks for that. Not a hater, like I said I’m against the move.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

Personally, can I please get forced to move for $100k? I am trying to move for free!

Jokes aside, it seems troubling. Especially if they panic and grasp at any option to cover up their failures of understaffing the NAS.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

Haters take, it was objectively going up prior. Then the guy currently in charge of the move Segelski, was ATM at N90 for a moment and completely threw out N90s newly improved and successful training program, implemented a 2-3 part, broken NDIS training program with massive errors in the material, purposely doubled and sometimes tripled training times in the middle of the working incentives, making training stall significantly, plus the 100+ trainees sent from TETRA that sat in classrooms waiting for years to start. Made it look like training times went up and called it a wash. NEB likely made some deal that FAA can do what they want it if fails and didn't have the balls to say anything else in the name of "collaboration".

So now the guy who sabotaged the improving success at N90, got put in charge of continuing to push a failed and unnecessary break-up of the building, and no one nationally wants to stand up for whats right publicly.

Fucking sad I am not surprised one bit

 

[BCHOOSIER]

Do I think N90 controllers should be forced to move, NO. Do I think NATCA should do everything they can to fight this move, YES. Consolidating facilities is not the answer. It may sell great now in the present, but it will only create greater division and a loss of collective strength from the workforce in the future.
With all that said, I am wondering where was the outrage when the Agency and NATCA consolidated several facilities across the NAS? Many on here thought it was a good thing.
To the N90 controllers/supporters that have recently came on here to post their grievances with what is happening and asking for others to fight for them...where were you when the Agency and NATCA were doing the same shit to other brothers and sisters in the Union? The truth is, it didn't affect you. You didn't think it would happen at N90, so you didn't care. Now it's real and it sucks. I support you guys and the fight but I hope moving forward you remember this feeling of being wronged. I hope you choose to fight with the next group of controllers that are going to have to deal with this same shit.

 

[Deuce]

Do I think N90 controllers should be forced to move, NO. Do I think NATCA should do everything they can to fight this move, YES. Consolidating facilities is not the answer. It may sell great now in the present, but it will only create greater division and a loss of collective strength from the workforce in the future.
With all that said, I am wondering where was the outrage when the Agency and NATCA consolidated several facilities across the NAS? Many on here thought it was a good thing.
To the N90 controllers/supporters that have recently came on here to post their grievances with what is happening and asking for others to fight for them...where were you when the Agency and NATCA were doing the same shit to other brothers and sisters in the Union? The truth is, it didn't affect you. You didn't think it would happen at N90, so you didn't care. Now it's real and it sucks. I support you guys and the fight but I hope moving forward you remember this feeling of being wronged. I hope you choose to fight with the next group of controllers that are going to have to deal with this same shit.

The agency never forced anybody to move, totally different situation lol if the agency goes to some controllers and asks them if they want to move and they say yes, they aren't dealing with the same shit

Show me one other time there was an airspace move where the controllers were involuntarily relocated to make it happen

 

[BCHOOSIER]

The agency never forced anybody to move, totally different situation lol if the agency goes to some controllers and asks them if they want to move and they say yes, they aren't dealing with the same shit

Show me one other time there was an airspace move where the controllers were involuntarily relocated to make it happen

Do you think drastically decreasing a controller's wages for the entirety of the controller's career wouldn't result in a controller feeling they have no other option other than to move. You go to a facility that you want to be at and think you can some day earn the top of the pay band and be happy. A few years later you check out, buy a house, put your kids in school, make friends, and your spouse gets a job they love. Then your facility gets consolidated. Then it gets downgraded, not once but twice. Hell, a few years later maybe it would get downgraded again for a third time. That salary you thought you would eventually be happy with will never happen. The high three you thought you would have in retirement, won't be there. Raises for your career will be halted and a hope for a better financial future for your family disappears. So the only option you're left with to avoid all of this is to transfer to somewhere else. You have to move your family away from their friends, schools, jobs. You have to buy a smaller house for for more money. You have to go back through training. Does any of this sound familiar?
Let's play a game, out of the three options below which one doesn't adversely effect a controller and his family?
Option 1: Don't move, earn less money for the rest of your career, work longer, and have your family sacrifice somethings throughout your career.
Option 2: Permanently move your family even if you like where you are to ensure your current financial future. Receive no money from the Agency for the move or your troubles.
Option 3: Forced to move less than 3 hours away for no longer than two years but can return to your current location if you want to. No loss in wages. You get $100,000 and per diem everyday you're away.

All three options suck and shouldn't happen to controllers. I guess the difference between you and I is I see how the Agency and NATCA can "forcefully" shit on controllers in all consolidation where as for you, you only think Option 3 gets wronged.

 

[DankVectorz]

Do you think drastically decreasing a controller's wages for the entirety of the controller's career wouldn't result in a controller feeling they have no other option other than to move. You go to a facility that you want to be at and think you can some day earn the top of the pay band and be happy. A few years later you check out, buy a house, put your kids in school, make friends, and your spouse gets a job they love. Then your facility gets consolidated. Then it gets downgraded, not once but twice. Hell, a few years later maybe it would get downgraded again for a third time. That salary you thought you would eventually be happy with will never happen. The high three you thought you would have in retirement, won't be there. Raises for your career will be halted and a hope for a better financial future for your family disappears. So the only option you're left with to avoid all of this is to transfer to somewhere else. You have to move your family away from their friends, schools, jobs. You have to buy a smaller house for for more money. You have to go back through training. Does any of this sound familiar?
Let's play a game, out of the three options below which one doesn't adversely effect a controller and his family?
Option 1: Don't move, earn less money for the rest of your career, work longer, and have your family sacrifice somethings throughout your career.
Option 2: Permanently move your family even if you like where you are to ensure your current financial future. Receive no money from the Agency for the move or your troubles.
Option 3: Forced to move less than 3 hours away for no longer than two years but can return to your current location if you want to. No loss in wages. You get $100,000 and per diem everyday you're away.

All three options suck and shouldn't happen to controllers. I guess the difference between you and I is I see how the Agency and NATCA can "forcefully" shit on controllers in all consolidation where as for you, you only think Option 3 gets wronged.

Personally I never heard of any situation like that. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I am saying the people it was happening to and NATCA certainly didn’t tell anybody about it.

 

[BCHOOSIER]

Do you think drastically decreasing a controller's wages for the entirety of the controller's career wouldn't result in a controller feeling they have no other option other than to move. You go to a facility that you want to be at and think you can some day earn the top of the pay band and be happy. A few years later you check out, buy a house, put your kids in school, make friends, and your spouse gets a job they love. Then your facility gets consolidated. Then it gets downgraded, not once but twice. Hell, a few years later maybe it would get downgraded again for a third time. That salary you thought you would eventually be happy with will never happen. The high three you thought you would have in retirement, won't be there. Raises for your career will be halted and a hope for a better financial future for your family disappears. So the only option you're left with to avoid all of this is to transfer to somewhere else. You have to move your family away from their friends, schools, jobs. You have to buy a smaller house for for more money. You have to go back through training. Does any of this sound familiar?
Let's play a game, out of the three options below which one doesn't adversely effect a controller and his family?
Option 1: Don't move, earn less money for the rest of your career, work longer, and have your family sacrifice somethings throughout your career.
Option 2: Permanently move your family even if you like where you are to ensure your current financial future. Receive no money from the Agency for the move or your troubles.
Option 3: Forced to move less than 3 hours away for no longer than two years but can return to your current location if you want to. No loss in wages. You get $100,000 and per diem everyday you're away.

All three options suck and shouldn't happen to controllers. I guess the difference between you and I is I see how the Agency and NATCA can "forcefully" shit on controllers in all consolidation where as for you only think Option 3 gets wronged.

Personally I never heard of any situation like that. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I am saying the people it was happening to and NATCA certainly didn’t tell anybody about it.

What situation? Did you not know that after a facility gets consolidated, they get downgraded sometimes by two levels.

 

[DankVectorz]

What situation? Did you not know that after a facility gets consolidated, they get downgraded sometimes by two levels.

Why would I know it’s happening if no one ever mentions it happening? Only other consolidation I’ve ever really heard discussed any time recently was Cape Tracon to Boston. If no one raises a stink about something why would anybody think people are getting screwed?

 

[BCHOOSIER]

Why would I know it’s happening if no one ever mentions it happening? Only other consolidation I’ve ever really heard discussed any time recently was Cape Tracon to Boston

So let me get this straight, you are admitting to knowing nothing about all the consolidations that have happened throughout the NAS over the last several years but at the same time you know that...

"the people it was happening to and NATCA certainly didn’t tell anybody about it." YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS SHIT UP!

Again, I'm with you guys at N90, but it's hard not to laugh a little at some of the comments. It's like talking to my son the first time he got a job and seen the amount of taxes that came out of his check...the outrage that something that "crazy" happened to everyone else every week. Total disbelief. Please refer back to my initial post. You guys didn't know or didn't care but it was happening and now that you got a little taste of it you don't like it. Understandable, we don't like it either. Welcome to the other side of the tracks.

 

[DankVectorz]

So let me get this straight, you are admitting to knowing nothing about all the consolidations that have happened throughout the NAS over the last several years but at the same time you know that...

"the people it was happening to and NATCA certainly didn’t tell anybody about it." YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS SHIT UP!

uh yeah cause if it got spoken about like how N90 people are speaking about it then people would have heard about it. Show me all the threads on here or anywhere else of facilities being consolidated where the members involved are trying to stop it.

 

[BCHOOSIER]

uh yeah cause if it got spoken about like how N90 people are speaking about it then people would have heard about it. Show me all the threads on here or anywhere else of facilities being consolidated where the members involved are trying to stop it.

You can go back and look at the past threads on consolidation. Some individuals were for it, some against it. I can tell you plenty of people talk about it. Again, just because you weren't involved in previous discussions or consolidation doesn't mean they didn't happen. The majority of the post about the N90 move have been from current or former N90 controllers. Which is understandable. I can tell you this, the consolidation I was apart of affected more facilities, had more controller movement, larger airspace, and more equipment obstacles than the N90 movement.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Some consolidations make sense. And that's what the 804 process is for. Being forced to move is what it is. Welcome to what the rest of the NAS has dealt with for decades.
But, the N90 thing didn't go through the 804 process, very obviously reduces efficiency and will cost the agency money in the long run due to the staffing numbers not changing for N90. That's more than enough reason to fight it.