Wake Turbulence Separation Between Arrivals/Departures

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I had a couple of questions regarding the application of wake turbulence separation rules.

1.You have Aircraft A (we'll say in the Heavy weight class) in the tower's VFR traffic pattern. Aircraft B (also in the Heavy weight class) calls ready for departure at the full length of the runway. You clear the Aircraft B for takeoff prior to aircraft A's arrival. 7110.65 3-10-3b. says:

"Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight of: The super or heavy to aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving super or heavy on the same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet; The B757/large aircraft to a small aircraft landing behind a departing/arriving B757/large aircraft on the same or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet."

If the aircraft in the pattern requests a low approach (therefore becoming a departure as soon as he crosses the landing threshold, what is the separation requirement between these two aircraft (from a wake turbulence standpoint)? I'm familiar with what 3-9-7 says about successive touch-and-gos/stop-and-gos behind a departure provided visual sep/spacing etc, but that is referencing the three minute wake turbulence hold for intersection departures, not the two minute hold for full length. Is it just a cautionary wake turbulence call here or do I have to provide two minutes of space?

2. Same situation except instead of the Aircraft A being in the pattern, he is on an ILS final and is planning to do the option on-the-go to the tower VFR pattern. As far as wake turbulence goes, what is my separation requirement here? It seems kind of questionable from a safety standpoint to just push Aircraft B out with Aircraft A say 3-mile final and probably being on-the-go in less than two minutes behind that heavy departure. On an ILS, he can't do much to avoid wake turbulence, so if he does a touch-and-go behind that departure, applying the rules in 3-9-7 don't seem right as he can't space himself; and if he does a low approach, there's a good chance two minutes have not passed since the heavy departed from the full length of the runway. I'm just not sure how to square up 3-10-3b. with all the paragraphs that talk about two and three minute wake turbulence holds.

I'd appreciate any thoughts
 
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This is the problem with asking controllers / the internet, you're going to get conflicting answers.

To the OP do it however your trainer wants you to do it and when you check out do it however you want to do it. If your way lands you a PROC go back to your trainers way because you're doing it wrong.
 
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WayfaircabinetsCHEAP said:
The 2 minute rule applies still. You can’t waive or use visual separation on the 2 minutes.
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Not necessarily. If you can use wake recat and are dealing with two Category C's (B767, MD11, etc.) you can basically treat them like two cessnas (aside from runway sep). The 3-minute rule for intersection departures doesn't apply and there is no minimum radar separation for wake turbulence so you can use tower applied visual separation if they're in the pattern. Technically you don't even have to say "caution wake turbulence". If you were dealing with two Category B's though, much different story.

Edit: clarification
 
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Termine said:
Same here, but that was at the academy where all the heavies were IFR itinerant arrivals and departures and the T/G traffic was on a separate runway. If you have a heavy in the traffic pattern for a runway and additional traffic in the pattern on that same runway, are you as the local controller required to provide wake turbulence separation just like the approach controller has to for their traffic? The Opposing Bases podcast touched on this last week and didn't really get anywhere conclusive.


2 minutes or 4 miles. 3–9–6e says that you can use the time intervals in 3–9–6 f through h, or you can use the miles from 5–5–4g.
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In a busy VFR tower you're grabbing visual a lot, I would say pilot applied visual is what makes the dream work. Assuming you're busy and final is stacked, Heavy goes by on final, turn the smalls base call traffic and have them follow and maintain visual. Turning the smalls base is kinda a dick/power move to beat the blurb about not altering a flight plath to shorten it after applying pilot applied visual but at that point the pilot can either play the game or continue through final and get re-sequenced. If there is no one behind the heavy call traffic off the downwind and let the small pick his base

Take all of this with a grain of salt, I consider myself old and assume if mgmt isn't PROC'ing me or telling me I'm having TARP hits I must be doing it right.
 
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doodii said:
Because it’s a published instrument ap

Because it’s a published instrument approach. The controller can provide visual sep for arrival arrival but you can’t do it when wake turbulence is involved. How do ppl not know this? When wake turbulence is involved and you need to apply it you can just make up your own rules.

Tower applied visual between a small option behind a heavy departure? Who trained you? Lol
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The climb out isn't an instrument approach....
 
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doodii said:
Lol no. Absolutely not. Instruments do not apply to this. VFR pattern or straight-in all day.
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Logic says it doesn't apply, but I don't see a rule saying you can't use pilot applied viz on an instrument approach for wake. Just approved sep before and after. We don't use logic in ATC, just rules.
 
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I had the same question for losing 4 at the threshold with small behind large, and management said if the aircraft on an instrument reports the guy in sight, and you give the maintain visual separation speech before losing 4, you’re legal
 
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AB19 said:
I had the same question for losing 4 at the threshold with small behind large, and management said if the aircraft on an instrument reports the guy in sight, and you give the maintain visual separation speech before losing 4, you’re legal
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Same with visual approaches. You have the required sep before the sequence, miles or altitude. If the smaller AC is trailing the larger AC and reports traffic to follow in sight, you clear them and let them know the speed overtake. If they break their wake sep milage at that point it's on them not you. I guess the logic is that AC on instruments can't alter their flight path, but there is no rule you can't use viz sep. Also they can inform you they can't accept the viz sep responsibilty and you can adjust your plan accordingly
 
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