Rich Santa - Accomplishments, FAA Reauthorization, and Pay. Focus on the Issues!

GroundClutter said:
Even if I was at the cap gimme the damn raise. I'll wipe my tears with yearly lump sums and contribute to my own investment accounts.
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If we can’t change the cap, raise all the levels under the cap. Make it a big number. Anyone at the cap gets a large one time bonus equal to the raise they should have received. Done.
 
EightTwoSierra said:
If we can’t change the cap, raise all the levels under the cap. Make it a big number. Anyone at the cap gets a large one time bonus equal to the raise they should have received. Done.
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And then you can work on the cap in future years. But arguing that we should make more than a congressman is going to be a hard sell. Also after you get the raise then get more premiums because those aren’t capped. But only getting premiums would be an L cus it doesn’t help Retirement
 
32andBelow said:
And then you can work on the cap in future years. But arguing that we should make more than a congressman is going to be a hard sell. Also after you get the raise then get more premiums because those aren’t capped. But only getting premiums would be an L cus it doesn’t help Retirement
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Right and neither do the lump sums which is the only downside.
 
EightTwoSierra said:
If we can’t change the cap, raise all the levels under the cap. Make it a big number. Anyone at the cap gets a large one time bonus equal to the raise they should have received. Done.
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That's great and all, except most centers will all be capped out making the same salary regardless of locality and facility level, making the harder to staff places (which are already capped out) even harder to staff. Done? Hardly. Also, the larger the amount of money it will take to make up for lost income once you remove the cap, the harder it will be to actually remove the cap because of the extra appropriations it will require.
32andBelow said:
And then you can work on the cap in future years. But arguing that we should make more than a congressman is going to be a hard sell. Also after you get the raise then get more premiums because those aren’t capped. But only getting premiums would be an L cus it doesn’t help Retirement
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You know they only make 174k right? Many of us already make way more than congress. Because they're idiots who haven't allowed their own automatic raises to go in to effect for like 15 years. And see above as to why pushing the cap removal further out makes it harder to do. But yes, everything we get paid should go to retirement IMO.
 
blarg said:
That's great and all, except most centers will all be capped out making the same salary regardless of locality and facility level, making the harder to staff places (which are already capped out) even harder to staff. Done? Hardly. Also, the larger the amount of money it will take to make up for lost income once you remove the cap, the harder it will be to actually remove the cap because of the extra appropriations it will require.

You know they only make 174k right? Many of us already make way more than congress. Because they're idiots who haven't allowed their own automatic raises to go in to effect for like 15 years. And see above as to why pushing the cap removal further out makes it harder to do. But yes, everything we get paid should go to retirement IMO.
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Most centers won’t be capped tho. That’s fake
 
blarg said:
That's great and all, except most centers will all be capped out making the same salary regardless of locality and facility level, making the harder to staff places (which are already capped out) even harder to staff. Done? Hardly. Also, the larger the amount of money it will take to make up for lost income once you remove the cap, the harder it will be to actually remove the cap because of the extra appropriations it will require.

You know they only make 174k right? Many of us already make way more than congress. Because they're idiots who haven't allowed their own automatic raises to go in to effect for like 15 years. And see above as to why pushing the cap removal further out makes it harder to do. But yes, everything we get paid should go to retirement IMO.
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If you are at the cap at a 12 for the government you are close to retirement anyways. I doubt many people are going to complain about a one time 20k check (random arbitrary number just an example).. The cap is a huge problem to deal with, so let’s work with what we got.

You do realize the lower level facilities have a very small window before they reach their level cap? Out in the LA area, a level 6 controller can only get 30k worth of raises in their career before capped. A level 11 or 12 get 55-60k as their potential raise before the cap. So if you get stuck at a low level, you not only have a smaller salary, you also have a smaller window worth of raises. Raising all the pay scales at the bottom and top for all level 5-10 is a great thing… 11 and 12 can have their bases raised, but cap is capped. Narrow that 55k window to reach cap at their facilities and thats a win for everyone…. And again, ANYONE at the top gets a big bonus check, sorry, you are capped. I know this is confusing, I’m going to actually do a PDF with the new numbers for the LA area. Be easier to show on paper.
 
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32andBelow said:
Our raise should have been in the reauth. Such a blunder. But I don’t see why we need to be afraid of appropriations. They just will ask for their new number. And they may include new revenue sources in future budgets. Bidens already talking about fixing private jet fees
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NATCA has been fighting for 10+ years to get the FAA to stop hiring based off of the bean counters model and finally won.

One thing at a time. This is a bureaucracy we are dealing with it.
 
HurryUpandWait said:
NATCA has been fighting for 10+ years to get the FAA to stop hiring based off of the bean counters model and finally won.

One thing at a time. This is a bureaucracy we are dealing with it.
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I’m curious to see the NCEPT impact though. We’re going to go to around 70% overnight. Which is great to acknowledge the true state of things but still sucks if anyone ever wants to leave
 
CaptainObvious said:
I’m curious to see the NCEPT impact though. We’re going to go to around 70% overnight. Which is great to acknowledge the true state of things but still sucks if anyone ever wants to leave
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It’s not going to 70% overnight. These are numbers they are going to use to hire to. It doesn’t say anything about NCEPT in faa reauth. Changing NCEPT is different
 
EightTwoSierra said:
If you are at the cap at a 12 for the government you are close to retirement anyways. I doubt many people are going to complain about a one time 20k check (random arbitrary number just an example).. The cap is a huge problem to deal with, so let’s work with what we got.

You do realize the lower level facilities have a very small window before they reach their level cap? Out in the LA area, a level 6 controller can only get 30k worth of raises in their career before capped. A level 11 or 12 get 55-60k as their potential raise before the cap. So if you get stuck at a low level, you not only have a smaller salary, you also have a smaller window worth of raises. Raising all the pay scales at the bottom and top for all level 5-10 is a great thing… 11 and 12 can have their bases raised, but cap is capped. Narrow that 55k window to reach cap at their facilities and thats a win for everyone…. And again, ANYONE at the top gets a big bonus check, sorry, you are capped. I know this is confusing, I’m going to actually do a PDF with the new numbers for the LA area. Be easier to show on paper.
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People can cap well before retirement age.
Look at ZNY and N90.
The base brand new CPC is at 175k. 15 years of June raises caps them out (175k X 1.016 16 times brings you to 222k). That's NOT INCLUDING every year locality goes up.
Over the past 7 years, locality there has gone up 6%. Let's just assume it goes up an avg of 0.8 % per year, so 2.4% increase bringing you closer to the cap each year (locality plus June). The base Jan increase raises both the pay band and the cap, so can be ignored.

175k * 1.024 caps you out by the 10th year. Even rounding the locality down significantly only increases the time it takes by a year or two.

Did you think anyone capped out that fast? You're right, because historically it has taken longer, but they are/will be AND
IT IS GETTING WORSE EVERY YEAR AND WILL AFFECT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE EVERY YEAR
AND WILL BE HARDER AND HARDER TO GET FIXED THE LONGER IT GOES ON.

Should lower level facilities make more than they do? Sure, but we all should. You're just cool with higher level facilities getting screwed because you think they make plenty already, when in reality they're more underpaid than lower level facilities are. A low level facility can at least reach the top of their own pay band. Capped out facilities literally can not get paid what they're supposed to be getting paid.
ZNY/N90 should reach the top of their pay band at 237k. They are underpaid by 16k/year RIGHT NOW and getting worse every year.
They could be reduced to level 11s and still cap out. ZOA caps out even sooner. Even SFO at a level 10 caps out.

Even places that are cheap to live like Atlanta, TX, etc... are within a few grand of capping out. Houston center now caps out. ZFW/D10 is within 2k of capping out and could very well hit the cap within two years. Many centers/large TRACONs that aren't already, are within 10% of their range of hitting the cap. You want everyone to get a big raise? Even a 5-10% base raise has a LOT of facilities capping out.

Your argument it isn't confusing, you just think the cap doesn't matter much, but you are wrong. You're also comparing absolute values across a wide variety of facility level salaries instead of percentages, which is also wrong.
 
blarg said:
People can cap well before retirement age.
Look at ZNY and N90.
The base brand new CPC is at 175k. 15 years of June raises caps them out (175k X 1.016 16 times brings you to 222k). That's NOT INCLUDING every year locality goes up.
Over the past 7 years, locality there has gone up 6%. Let's just assume it goes up an avg of 0.8 % per year, so 2.4% increase bringing you closer to the cap each year (locality plus June). The base Jan increase raises both the pay band and the cap, so can be ignored.

175k * 1.024 caps you out by the 10th year. Even rounding the locality down significantly only increases the time it takes by a year or two.

Did you think anyone capped out that fast? You're right, because historically it has taken longer, but they are/will be AND
IT IS GETTING WORSE EVERY YEAR AND WILL AFFECT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE EVERY YEAR
AND WILL BE HARDER AND HARDER TO GET FIXED THE LONGER IT GOES ON.

Should lower level facilities make more than they do? Sure, but we all should. You're just cool with higher level facilities getting screwed because you think they make plenty already, when in reality they're more underpaid than lower level facilities are. A low level facility can at least reach the top of their own pay band. Capped out facilities literally can not get paid what they're supposed to be getting paid.
ZNY/N90 should reach the top of their pay band at 237k. They are underpaid by 16k/year RIGHT NOW and getting worse every year.
They could be reduced to level 11s and still cap out. ZOA caps out even sooner. Even SFO at a level 10 caps out.

Even places that are cheap to live like Atlanta, TX, etc... are within a few grand of capping out. Houston center now caps out. ZFW/D10 is within 2k of capping out and could very well hit the cap within two years. Many centers/large TRACONs that aren't already, are within 10% of their range of hitting the cap. You want everyone to get a big raise? Even a 5-10% base raise has a LOT of facilities capping out.

Your argument it isn't confusing, you just think the cap doesn't matter much, but you are wrong. You're also comparing absolute values across a wide variety of facility level salaries instead of percentages, which is also wrong.
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I’m not saying upper facilities with people at the cap aren’t getting screwed to a degree. But apparently this cap is gonna take an act of congress, so forget that from happening. So what do we do? Work on raising what we can, as much as we can, as I laid out. People making $250k base with no OT is a ok spot to be, but screwing those stuck at a 6 making 1/3 of that means turnover and quitting.. So play in the rules we have. What about the idea that everyone is at max pay, but we turn to time in agency bonuses? Is that a complaint?

As I said above, a controller once told me that progress means some will not benefit as much as others. And that’s ok. If my idea helps 90% of controllers (which it probably helps more), the last 10% can complain and bitch all they want, but a huge bonus check can help them wipe away some of that pain. We cannot decide to do nothing if cap issue cannot be fixed. Raise all boats across the board, and award those at the top with a healthy bonus. Waiting for a cap fix isn’t the answer if we can do something NOW.
 
Nick has a plan to address the cap which would involve moving 2152 out of the job series that is subject to the cap. JD hasn’t even mentioned it on his website but he’s been nonexistent for a while anyway.
 

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