Stuck in a holding pattern at a facility

FightingIrish2012

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94
“No matter what facility you are at its still one of the best (jobs) to have in the world.”

^ This sickening line of thinking causes more problems with complacency, egos, labor relations, performance of support teams, etc.... then you could ever imagine or know and is a slap in the face to at least 1/3 of the 2152 who so far in their career have been getting nothing but dicked with and told they should just to happy to have “the greatest job in the world”.
 

Electricfence

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43
“No matter what facility you are at its still one of the best (jobs) to have in the world.”

^ This sickening line of thinking causes more problems with complacency, egos, labor relations, performance of support teams, etc.... then you could ever imagine or know and is a slap in the face to at least 1/3 of the 2152 who so far in their career have been getting nothing but dicked with and told they should just to happy to have “the greatest job in the world”.

It only causes more problems because of a bad attitude. With the right attitude knowing you have a fantastic job I think it makes people work harder. We all signed up knowing you might be somewhere you don’t want to be. If where you are is your only problem but you are doing the job you love, then you do in fact have better than most. Im not saying it’s ideal but then find something that makes you happy while you are there either at work or at home.
 

Dolan

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It only causes more problems because of a bad attitude. With the right attitude knowing you have a fantastic job I think it makes people work harder. We all signed up knowing you might be somewhere you don’t want to be. If where you are is your only problem but you are doing the job you love, then you do in fact have better than most. Im not saying it’s ideal but then find something that makes you happy while you are there either at work or at home.
Most people signed up with the old err clause in the contract in place and planned on it for their career advancement. All those people just got the rug pulled out from under them in the middle of their career with ncept
 

Electricfence

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Most people signed up with the old err clause in the contract in place and planned on it for their career advancement. All those people just got the rug pulled out from under them in the middle of their career with ncept
Most people were foolish enough to think managers could manage facilities appropriately.
 

FightingIrish2012

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94
Longest I’ve heard of was a guy at FAI for 6 years. Couldn’t take it anymore and bid out as a Supe to ICT
Can’t say I blame him, being stuck in a impossible situation and doing that to circumvent NCEPT is the only honorable reason I see to become a supervisor.
 

Uscolt45

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Can’t say I blame him, being stuck in a impossible situation and doing that to circumvent NCEPT is the only honorable reason I see to become a supervisor.

I know a lot of people are dead set against supervisors, but some do take the job in the hopes of improving working conditions etc. Just imagine if absolutely zero pro NATCA/Controller people stepped up to do the job. Ive had a few sups who were previously facreps and actually took a stand for controllers against upper management and their bullshit.

The sups I don’t like are the ones who take the gig because they can’t do our job or because they are power hungry and micro manage the shit out of us.
 

PushingTin

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84
“No matter what facility you are at its still one of the best (jobs) to have in the world.”

^ This sickening line of thinking causes more problems with complacency, egos, labor relations, performance of support teams, etc.... then you could ever imagine or know and is a slap in the face to at least 1/3 of the 2152 who so far in their career have been getting nothing but dicked with and told they should just to happy to have “the greatest job in the world”.
I will 2nd this notion. I also hear a lot of sups say things alluding to "how lucky we are to be here" to justify absurdities within the ATO, aggregious CBA vioaltions, and/or just piss poor management and toxic facilities. These broad platitudes are not healthy to advancing personal development, morale, happiness, pride, satisfaction or meaning in your job. IE "no matter how bad it is, everything is still great, you could be digging ditches!" . No one has any standing to judge the relative "luck" or circumstances in which one controller finds themselves in a given position, and this is indeed sickening level of settling/complacency/narrow minded unhealthy group think that can never lead to greatness! How many years did they spend in the military, a contract tower, a CTI school, etc etc circumstances to wind up at that very spot. Just because some people are content to settle for less and accept the mediocrity that often comes with a federal job that has a unique ability to soul suck the ambition of some and transform them into caricatured monsters who lose a grip on reality; doesn't make it "one of the best jobs in the world". That depends on perspective and is highly subjective. Some facilities can be accurately compared to hell on earth for some people, because they are.

To the greater topic in this thread..... You can very easily get "stuck" at a facility for way way longer than 5 years. There is no guaruntee of ever leaving. Under the current ERR MOU NCEPT panel rules (which are still better than how it was), the facilities that aren't eligible to lose anyone -- but have a large number of people who want to leave -- understandably lead to people getting out any way they can. Many facilities have multiple controllers bidding sup jobs to wherever they can get to. These usually get them approved for a "deviation", that is to say released even though the numbers do not support it for ERR purposes. This only exacerbates how long it takes to get out via proper ERR, and adds to frustration. This creates a cycle where just leaving becomes competitive and people one up each other and put in for higher and higher priority facilities just to get out. Of course N90 is historically the ultimate trump card for anyone masochistic enough to willfully join that racket. The silver lining being that if you "play ball" and be a good soldier you can make 300-400k a year through special benefits they get not afforded to any of the other 320ish facilities. Then you have your hardship scammers. Talk to any NATCA regional hardship rep and they will tell you a million different creative ways people try to hardship. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Either way its another end run on the ERR MOU process which might leave you higher and dryer than some RadioHead lyrics. (Obviously there are also legit hardships where someone has a parent w Stage 4 cancer etc.). There is Article 60 in the CBA, which allows you priority to transfer to an equal or lesser level facility if you have been ceritfied for at least 8 years at your current facility and invoke it. This works, but not necessarily to get to your "dream facility". The bottom line is there are some facilities that may very well be impossible for you to get to in the course of a career. PHL, CLT, TPA, etc. Unless you can get to the top of their ranking list through their rep and/or ATM there are just simply too many people who want to go there.

All that to say... it could take many years or decades in the right circumstances. Or forever. That said... its not exactly a prison sentence. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to come work those 4 planes a day at your level 4 tower! Altho some people have Stockholm Syndrome it seems and are de facto lifers. Hey there is always the annual scams like CFS, NIW, et al to look fwd to!!! :lol:
 

FightingIrish2012

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94
^ As this guy said as bad as it sucks “there is no guarantee of ever leaving”. And if your at one of those facilities where it takes years to get the staffing to release one, right when your about to release you can bet on someone embellishing a hardship to just to the front of the line and leave, or a 4 month CPC applying to a place top ten on the placement list or a specialty place like LAX.

The 5+ year CPC veteran at a level 5 who just wants to go to a 8 or 9 in their home town or larger market is never going to be close to the top of the priority list when half the facility has paperwork in and you have other playing games. That is the worst thing about NCEPT, it truly does shut down some types of movement basically for good. And when you approach the FAA or NATCA they will tel you how great the process is because they are producing more TOLs then ever before. Even though the average national staffing number was 85% when it started and 81% now, looks like it’s working great to me.

If you are in that position build a relationship with the place you are trying to get to then bid a sup job there when one comes up. It is sometimes the only way. Even that will require a deviation, and it sometimes looks like they randomly throw darts at a board as to which ones get approved, but it’s one way to keep up hope.
 

Stuckinaspen

Member
Messages
8
Couldn't stay away from this topic...

The massive problem with the NCEPT is that it does seriously bone some facilities. While other facilities are very easy to leave to high level desirable locations. Let me use as an example two places.... 1. VGT, level 7 I think the target number is 11. Look at how many they released last year on the NCEPT, it was like 9 freaking people. This ncept they are again already releasing 5 more people. FIVE! When they do release those people they will go to somewhere around 76-78% staffing or something. They get acad grads, nest, and hardship transfers going there.

2. ASE... cpc target of 15. Has got 1 new person in the last two years, during the entire NCEPT has only let 2 people go, and will finally get to let only 1 person go again this ncept. When they do, number will go down to 81.1.... so vgt will then get the acad grad before ASE, just like other facilities who keep getting people, releasing, then jumping ASE in the numbers and then getting new people again. ASE does not get nest, they do not get hardships, they get only acad grads, but they get stuck at 81 or 83% for years watching other places release and jump them in getting acad grads over and over.

After so long people at places like ASE get desperate, and multiple people put in for literally every top facility. So the competition to leave is crazy and tensions get high... it creates a not fun environment. The hope of getting out is 1/14th chance once a year and you have to put into all the top low staffed high level facilities... if you dont you have no chance of ever leaving.


That's what's wrong
 

32andBelow

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322
If it were only that easy 😪 but that makes sense, so we can't possibly do that!
I don’t understand why they don’t do local hiring for hard to staff facilities. Like there’s hundreds of thousands of people in the Bay Area that would love to make 150k a year.
 

Foogy

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337
Stuckinaspen lowering the staffing target, I like that. Our 5 has a 15 target and we've had some old head who counts as a .6 loss and ruins our chances of people getting out.

Then there is also the fact that 3/4 of the facility is on 8 pay for the 5 tower when we lost our tracon. They're content where they are and give zero cares about anyone coming or going. Hence the bottomless pit of washouts.
 
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PushingTin

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84
Stuckinaspen
Then there is also the fact that 3/4 of the facility is on 8 pay for the 5 tower when we lost our tracon. They're content where they are and give zero cares about anyone coming or going. Hence the bottomless pit of washouts.
this I think has been another ancillary effect of the ERR MOU & the new movement is has spurred in the last few years. Most mid level facilities have DRAMATIC pay disparities within facility. You have a whole class of people who have ERRed in to "come home" who are capped out, and then the Academy grads and washouts on the very bottom --often of facilities who have already been hit very hard w the downgrades (that ARTCCs never got... super equitable! :rolleyes:). Its a very valid thing to discuss. Creates like you say... this environment where a handful of CPCs are totally content making well into 6 figures and really dont care about all this ERR noise or the logjam of ppl desperate to leave.... and the other half of the facility is grinding away dreaming about a transfer every quarter usually to no avail. As they see ppl leave on hardships, get deviations to go be sups, and get blocked in various other ways. All the while making maybe 2/3rds of their others in the same facility. Morale is very low at a lot of facilities. Combine that w the often lack of a serious knowledgeable facrep in these faciltiies with constant turnover and you have a nightmare that makes you think of possibly resigning at some point to get on with your life...despite as some of the sheep say it is allegedly " one of the the best jobs in the world"
 

boots

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220
Don't forget about the facilities that used to be 7s and got downgraded multiple times and expect you to work level 7 traffic to get checked out or washed out.
 

FightingIrish2012

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94
Don't forget about the facilities that used to be 7s and got downgraded multiple times and expect you to work level 7 traffic to get checked out or washed out.
This might be the most dangerous line of thinking in the agency, it’s was out of control rampant for a decade or more. Luckily now it’s finally dying out as the god complex dinosaurs with Alzheimer’s are being forced to retire.

this I think has been another ancillary effect of the ERR MOU & the new movement is has spurred in the last few years. Most mid level facilities have DRAMATIC pay disparities within facility. You have a whole class of people who have ERRed in to "come home" who are capped out, and then the Academy grads and washouts on the very bottom --often of facilities who have already been hit very hard w the downgrades (that ARTCCs never got... super equitable! :rolleyes:). Its a very valid thing to discuss. Creates like you say... this environment where a handful of CPCs are totally content making well into 6 figures and really dont care about all this ERR noise or the logjam of ppl desperate to leave.... and the other half of the facility is grinding away dreaming about a transfer every quarter usually to no avail. As they see ppl leave on hardships, get deviations to go be sups, and get blocked in various other ways. All the while making maybe 2/3rds of their others in the same facility. Morale is very low at a lot of facilities. Combine that w the often lack of a serious knowledgeable facrep in these faciltiies with constant turnover and you have a nightmare that makes you think of possibly resigning at some point to get on with your life...despite as some of the sheep say it is allegedly " one of the the best jobs in the world"
“despite as some of the sheep say it is allegedly " one of the the best jobs in the world"”

This is also true, save that line of thinking you sheeple for the Beaver County/Riddle reunions and pilot forums. Not saying this career is terrible but some jobs in the private sector and even other government agencies blow this out of the park, but many are so closed minded and locked into aviation they would never imagine to look.

And if you want to fall back on the job security and retirement argument, we are currently in a time where privatization and consolidations are gaining mass momentum (although those consolidations are a awesome idea), and wait until you retire in 20 years and see how many of those benefits were stripped away by constant attacks. New hires already pay almost 5% more into their pension plans then me, and I’ve not even been in the Agency all that long.
 

Tusaz

Member
Messages
8
NCEPT release policy has made Article 60 worthless. It doesn't mean anything anymore.
Why not? The way it was explained to me is that article 60 moves have priority over all other ncept move requests. Is that not true? School me please.
 
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