Training hold

[CaptainObvious]

Whaaaat? How many people are in lab at once? We can have two people in lab at a time (only run a morning shift in the lab) and each run four problems a day.

NCEPT screwed a lot of facilities. Centers especially. Months to well over a year wait to even hit the labs for stage 3

 

[Peter Gibbons]

NCEPT screwed a lot of facilities. Centers especially. Months to well over a year wait to even hit the labs for stage 3

I'm at a level 8 up/down, got here 25 months ago. Even without the Rona I'm probably looking at another year before I start downstairs.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I'm at a level 8 up/down, got here 25 months ago. Even without the Rona I'm probably looking at another year before I start downstairs.

Guess I’ll stop complaining about my three month delays in the towers I’ve been to. ?

 

[corn4ahead]

I'm at a level 8 up/down, got here 25 months ago. Even without the Rona I'm probably looking at another year before I start downstairs.

dafuq?

Where the heck are you at?

 

[Spoony90]

I'm at a level 8 up/down, got here 25 months ago. Even without the Rona I'm probably looking at another year before I start downstairs.

Yeah but we both know our facility is can of worms

 

[Peter Gibbons]

dafuq?

Where the heck are you at?

OKC. About half the bodies in the building are somewhere in the training pipeline, among other issues. It's my hometown and I'm not in a hurry to go anywhere else, but ya, would be nice to not be stuck in training status till I'm retirement eligible. It's costing me thousands of dollars in the long term on retirement and stuff, not to mention the salary part, and how shitty being a trainee is.

I'm not gonna say I regret accepting the ERR, but had I known I was giving up a relative country club type facility for a somewhat toxic, perpetually short staffed place that was gonna be a fucking 5 year checkout.... I may have thought twice before signing on the dotted line.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Yeah but we both know our facility is can of worms

I'd liken it more to a box of shit at times

 

[corn4ahead]

OKC. About half the bodies in the building are somewhere in the training pipeline, among other issues. It's my hometown and I'm not in a hurry to go anywhere else, but ya, would be nice to not be stuck in training status till I'm retirement eligible. It's costing me thousands of dollars in the long term on retirement and stuff, not to mention the salary part, and how shitty being a trainee is.

I'm not gonna say I regret accepting the ERR, but had I known I was giving up a relative country club type facility for a somewhat toxic, perpetually short staffed place that was gonna be a fucking 5 year checkout.... I may have thought twice before signing on the dotted line.

Whoa dude. That is brutal. Thank God it's home for you. Just imagine if it wasn't.

Sounds like the the training program needs a complete overhaul. No facility, and I mean ZERO facilities should have longer than a 2 year check out.

 

[ABACUS]

Go

Whoa dude. That is brutal. Thank God it's home for you. Just imagine if it wasn't.

Sounds like the the training program needs a complete overhaul. No facility, and I mean ZERO facilities should have longer than a 2 year check out.

Go to a center where you can find people that have been at the facility for 3 years and haven’t talked to a plane.

 

[32andBelow]

Go


Go to a center where you can find people that have been at the facility for 3 years and haven’t talked to a plane.

I’m on 2 years. My only actual training is well under a year. Haven’t talked to a plane.

 

[corn4ahead]

Go


Go to a center where you can find people that have been at the facility for 3 years and haven’t talked to a plane.

That's my point exactly, something has got to change.

 

[Super Salt]

That's my point exactly, something has got to change.

I would say halting NCEPT panels or greatly spacing them out more, but then what about all the people that are due to washout and facilities get slammed with folks from the NEST or even academy/prior hires?

 

[jdatc]

No facility, and I mean ZERO facilities should have longer than a 2 year check out.

yeah in an ideal world, you are right. Having been at a couple centers and a large Tracon, most people should be able to get through every sector in 2 years of just training time if they have it.

However, since we don’t have that ideal situation due to staffing, backlogs, vacations, technology upgrades, and human performance, it’s not the norm.

Some people are sharp and hit it right, and it works.

Maybe the Next person shows up, and then gets delayed by a bunch of knuckleheads in front of them. Or maybe they are the slow one and delay the people behind them and struggle, having a review board or two, some article 67 time and maybe some skill enhancement training too just to slow it down further.

Then for fun, add in some CPDLC, ERAM or other upgrade and bam, add a year. Maybe more.

 

[corn4ahead]

yeah in an ideal world, you are right. Having been at a couple centers and a large Tracon, most people should be able to get through every sector in 2 years of just training time if they have it.

However, since we don’t have that ideal situation due to staffing, backlogs, vacations, technology upgrades, and human performance, it’s not the norm.

Some people are sharp and hit it right, and it works.

Maybe the Next person shows up, and then gets delayed by a bunch of knuckleheads in front of them. Or maybe they are the slow one and delay the people behind them and struggle, having a review board or two, some article 67 time and maybe some skill enhancement training too just to slow it down further.

Then for fun, add in some CPDLC, ERAM or other upgrade and bam, add a year. Maybe more.

I understand.

If it's classroom, hire more instructors. Anyone can read a PowerPoint.

If it's lack of lab time, have instructors work swing shifts.

If it's equipment upgrades, don't place a training moratorium for 30, 60, 90 days to get CPCs "comfortable with the new equipment/procedures." It doesn't take that long.

Sure, extenuating circumstances happen, but 3+ years is astronomical.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

OKC. About half the bodies in the building are somewhere in the training pipeline, among other issues. It's my hometown and I'm not in a hurry to go anywhere else, but ya, would be nice to not be stuck in training status till I'm retirement eligible. It's costing me thousands of dollars in the long term on retirement and stuff, not to mention the salary part, and how shitty being a trainee is.

I'm not gonna say I regret accepting the ERR, but had I known I was giving up a relative country club type facility for a somewhat toxic, perpetually short staffed place that was gonna be a fucking 5 year checkout.... I may have thought twice before signing on the dotted line.

Now you’ve done it. You know that the Fac Reps patrol this board and 99% of the time they are extreme facility and NATCA loyalists right. You are about to get lit up more then that kid a month ago from some low level facility where the Fac Rep gave him the parting shot “good luck at RTF”.

 

[jdatc]

I understand.

If it's classroom, hire more instructors. Anyone can read a PowerPoint.

If it's lack of lab time, have instructors work swing shifts.

If it's equipment upgrades, don't place a training moratorium for 30, 60, 90 days to get CPCs "comfortable with the new equipment/procedures." It doesn't take that long.

Sure, extenuating circumstances happen, but 3+ years is astronomical.

I agree and some of your points are valid.

However, how many large (centers or core tracons) have you trained at? Some of this just isn’t that way or simple even when it should be... more so at centers I believe.

there are backlogs of people that don’t clear overnight just cause everyone got through the lab quickly.

There are people that it is really tough to get rid of for some dumb reason and sometimes they continue to jam up the works.

Also there is a certain amount of time CPC’s need to maintain proficiency that ties up positions. Then there is the occasional trainer shortage.

We should get times down lower, and I believe things have gotten better in the last 20 years, but even the simple solutions don’t get implemented due to politics, money or whatever.

Also, again, human performance. There are some people that do it at minimums and some don’t. And those that don’t fuck it up for the rest. Like when center trainees could train the D and the R together, but that fell off cause it was only good for the smart ones. The other people needed to do them separate.

I’d say there are bottlenecks at every point and as you clear some, they come roaring back just as quick.

 

[32andBelow]

I agree and some of your points are valid.

However, how many large (centers or core tracons) have you trained at? Some of this just isn’t that way or simple even when it should be... more so at centers I believe.

there are backlogs of people that don’t clear overnight just cause everyone got through the lab quickly.

There are people that it is really tough to get rid of for some dumb reason and sometimes they continue to jam up the works.

Also there is a certain amount of time CPC’s need to maintain proficiency that ties up positions. Then there is the occasional trainer shortage.

We should get times down lower, and I believe things have gotten better in the last 20 years, but even the simple solutions don’t get implemented due to politics, money or whatever.

Also, again, human performance. There are some people that do it at minimums and some don’t. And those that don’t fuck it up for the rest. Like when center trainees could train the D and the R together, but that fell off cause it was only good for the smart ones. The other people needed to do them separate.

I’d say there are bottlenecks at every point and as you clear some, they come roaring back just as quick.

I’ve been through months long periods at the center where there have been no classes and we just sit around and study

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Now you’ve done it. You know that the Fac Reps patrol this board and 99% of the time they are extreme facility and NATCA loyalists right. You are about to get lit up more then that kid a month ago from some low level facility where the Fac Rep gave him the parting shot “good luck at RTF”.

I mean.... I didn't say anything my fac rep wouldn't wholeheartedly agree with if he was that type (he's not as far as I can see). This isn't a single minded opinion in my building, nor is it about anyone in particular, but cool, opinions are like assholes I guess ?‍♂️

 

[jdatc]

I’ve been through months long periods at the center where there have been no classes and we just sit around and study

That is stupid, but it’s always worth asking why?

if it’s a lack of instructors for sim, or classroom, well, time to use that overtime and get an instructor. I agree with corn4ahead there completely.

if it’s (the delay) for technology stuff, well again, is it a physical lack of bodies that doesn’t allow it to happen or lab time? And could it be fixed with money, by say assigning overtime and going to 6 day weeks? I think any training problem that can be overcome with throwing money at the problem should be fixed.

Unless is it because the area is saturated with trainees.... Then you are just fucked.

 

[32andBelow]

That is stupid, but it’s always worth asking why?

if it’s a lack of instructors for sim, or classroom, well, time to use that overtime and get an instructor. I agree with corn4ahead there completely.

if it’s (the delay) for technology stuff, well again, is it a physical lack of bodies that doesn’t allow it to happen or lab time? And could it be fixed with money, by say assigning overtime and going to 6 day weeks? I think any training problem that can be overcome with throwing money at the problem should be fixed.

Unless is it because the area is saturated with trainees.... Then you are just fucked.

Not enough instructors. Lab is used 6 hours a day at most and never on weekends