Vector Below MVA

[SweatPants]

There is a debate going on at my facility about vectoring VFR aircraft below the MVA. We restrict all VFR aircraft below the MVA because of our LOA with approach. We don’t give a hard altitude to maintain but say at or below 2000/2500. I believe that we cannot give vectors since we are restricting them below the MVA. Their argument is that 5-6-1 says you can vector below the MVA if the aircraft isn’t assigned an altitude. My coworkers believe that since we say at or below this is not an assigned altitude therefore we can give vectors. Who’s right? The .65 seems a bit unclear on this.

 

[DankVectorz]

1) it says "except as authorized." What "authorizes" such a below-MVA vector? Is it this line in the .65 itself? Local SOP? LOA? Does anyone know?

Things like DVA’s

 

[BussyBomber]

There is a debate going on at my facility about vectoring VFR aircraft below the MVA. We restrict all VFR aircraft below the MVA because of our LOA with approach. We don’t give a hard altitude to maintain but say at or below 2000/2500. I believe that we cannot give vectors since we are restricting them below the MVA. Their argument is that 5-6-1 says you can vector below the MVA if the aircraft isn’t assigned an altitude. My coworkers believe that since we say at or below this is not an assigned altitude therefore we can give vectors. Who’s right? The .65 seems a bit unclear on this.

I’d say no. “At our below” is considered an assigned altitude to me. You can’t cap someone below the MVA and then vector them right into some terrain…

 

[NightWatch]

I’d say no. “At our below” is considered an assigned altitude to me. You can’t cap someone below the MVA and then vector them right into some terrain…

You can do that, hence the “AT or below” part. If the pilot chooses to descend below and something terrain/obstruction related happens it’s on the pilot. You’re giving them the option to operate at the MVA, even then, you can still vector VFR below the MVA as long as they can stay above the appropriate MSA.

 

[slater]

IFR or VFR?

 

[Phanatical]

IFR or VFR?

Marginal IFR

 

[AZNLUVR69]

Marginal IFR

Marginal VFR

 

[Phanatical]

Marginal VFR

I said what I said.

 

[yup]

People are saying that you need to give them at least the MVA in order to vector. Can we dig into that some more?

This is what 5-6-1 says:

Vector aircraft: At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR altitude except as authorized for [...] VFR operations

So a surface-level reading would imply that julietoscar above is correct, right? MVA doesn't apply to VFRs.

I have two counterarguments, though:
1) it says "except as authorized." What "authorizes" such a below-MVA vector? Is it this line in the .65 itself? Local SOP? LOA? Does anyone know?
2) The very next line in the book is the note:

VFR aircraft not at an altitude assigned by ATC may be vectored at any altitude. It is the responsibility of the pilot to comply with the applicable parts of CFR Title 14.

They specifically say that if the aircraft is NOT assigned an altitude, they may be vectored at any altitude. Doesn't that mean if they ARE assigned an altitude, they may NOT be vectored at any altitude? Or else what is the point of the note?

I really have no idea what the right answer is here.

 

[Spaceforce]

The way I understand this is that you can assign a VFR aircraft an altitude At or below the MVA. You can also vector an aircraft an aircraft below the MVA by prefacing the vector with “suggest.” If the aircraft can’t fly that heading (because of an obstacle or they can’t maintain VFR) they should let you know.

I don’t think you need to say suggest unless they aren’t radar identified. Vector any vfr regardless of altitude with no altitude restriction, I throw out maintain VFR on first vector. If you’re in radar, just assign headings, the pilots will tell you unable if they can’t.

 

[OscarMike931]

If you give someone an altitude below the mva you can’t vector them

True but you can't give an altitude below the mva in the first place

 

[wand_waver]

The way I understand this is that you can assign a VFR aircraft an altitude At or below the MVA. You can also vector an aircraft an aircraft below the MVA by prefacing the vector with “suggest.” If the aircraft can’t fly that heading (because of an obstacle or they can’t maintain VFR) they should let you know.

 

[NightWatch]

Sections 7-7, 7-8, and 7-9 provide for assigning VFR aircraft the MSA (from Part 91) instead of the MVA/MIA. That altitude can be a fair bit lower than the MVA.

Yes, upon looking you are correct in a general sense.

You however still cannot restrict VFR aircraft below an obstruction MVA altitude specifically per 14 CFR Section 91.119. An assigned altitude must be at least 1000 feet above the highest obstacle period. There are no exceptions unless an emergency exists.

 

[MikeDelta]

How is at or below not an altitude assignment?

Because it allows them to change their altitude to maintain VFR cloud clearance.

 

[julietoscar]

Vector aircraft:

1. In controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver, or when a pilot requests.
2. In Class G airspace only upon pilot request and as an additional service.
3. At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR altitude except as authorized for radar approaches, special VFR, VFR operations, or by Paragraph 5-6-3, Vectors Below Minimum Altitude.

NOTE-
VFR aircraft not at an altitude assigned by ATC may be vectored at any altitude. It is the responsibility of the pilot to comply with the applicable parts of CFR Title 14.

Ok sorry so I was half right - you can vector VFR aircraft below the MVA as long as they aren't assigned an altitude. I would agree that "at or below" is an altitude assignment, so they can't be done in conjunction with one another.

 

[NightWatch]

There is a debate going on at my facility about vectoring VFR aircraft below the MVA. We restrict all VFR aircraft below the MVA because of our LOA with approach. We don’t give a hard altitude to maintain but say at or below 2000/2500. I believe that we cannot give vectors since we are restricting them below the MVA. Their argument is that 5-6-1 says you can vector below the MVA if the aircraft isn’t assigned an altitude. My coworkers believe that since we say at or below this is not an assigned altitude therefore we can give vectors. Who’s right? The .65 seems a bit unclear on this.

First of all, you technically can’t restrict VFR aircraft below any MVA so their argument is invalid, radar vectors play no factor in that, it’s a hard rule. This also goes for terrain/obstruction MVA “bubbles” depicted on the scope which obviously means they need to be assigned a higher altitude restriction in those areas. I.e. “Maintain VFR at or below 3500” instead of 2500 or whatever that obstruction MVA altitude is etc. Instructing someone to “Maintain VFR at or below” your MVA allows you to still vector them because you’ve given them discretion to operate AT the MVA altitude. If they choose to go below it then anything resulting negatively (other than hitting other aircraft) is on them.

 

[julietoscar]

Lots of misinformation here. MVA doesn't apply to VFR aircraft ever. You can assign a vector to VFR aircraft at any altitude (even if you assign them at-or-below your MVA) and don't need a "suggested heading" ever. VFR in and of itself means the pilot is always responsible for terrain and obstruction clearance.