IFR on missed in pattern

SharkBait

SharkBait

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Had a conversation pop up with people on both sides and nothing to support one side over the other. Aircraft on a VA goes around short final and requests to stay in pattern and doesnt cancel IFR, is this legal? Legal with approach approval? With LOA?
 
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What kind of facility? Kind of surprising that no one knows 7-4-1. Spells it out pretty clearly.

Closed traffic after a visual approach is perfectly legal as long as you maintain IFR separation. Terrain and obstacle clearance is on the pilot.

Adding that I think it wouldn’t be surprising to see this governed in an LOA or something but I don’t think you’d need approaches approval as long as you don’t have a deal.
 
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CF said:
What kind of facility? Kind of surprising that no one knows 7-4-1. Spells it out pretty clearly.

Closed traffic after a visual approach is perfectly legal as long as you maintain IFR separation. Terrain and obstacle clearance is on the pilot.

Adding that I think it wouldn’t be surprising to see this governed in an LOA or something but I don’t think you’d need approaches approval as long as you don’t have a deal.
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A very low level tower, only vfr aircraft for the most part. We had someone arguing saying they could do that with an ILS, as well, but that was shut down pretty quick.
 
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SharkBait said:
A very low level tower, only vfr aircraft for the most part. We had someone arguing saying they could do that with an ILS, as well, but that was shut down pretty quick.
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Our LOA says the tower can transfer them from an ILS to a visual so if they do the intermediate step I could see an ILS dude winding up in the pattern
 
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TushingPin said:
I don't think anyone is saying you can't, but if the pilot chooses to do that, wouldn't they be canceling their IFR?
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Unless the pilot says they are canceling or there is some other provision that explicitly states they are VFR(like reaching the initial on an overhead) then I wouldn’t consider them VFR. If they want the pattern I’m going to ask them if they are canceling, if they don’t want to I’m giving them the published missed or whatever vector approach wants and shipping them.
 
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I don’t see how this is still an argument in any facility. They are just simply VFR on the go and I don’t care what anyone says. It’s fucking brain rot level of stupid to argue anything different.
 
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CF said:
Unless the pilot says they are canceling or there is some other provision that explicitly states they are VFR(like reaching the initial on an overhead) then I wouldn’t consider them VFR. If they want the pattern I’m going to ask them if they are canceling, if they don’t want to I’m giving them the published missed or whatever vector approach wants and shipping them.
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How are you going to say that 7-4-1 spells this out clearly and then spew this nonsense?

7-4-1 says an IFR going around on a visual approach may continue to proceed visually and enter the traffic pattern for landing. So yes, the tower can absolutely have someone IFR in the pattern, you just have to maintain applicable IFR/wake separation. Forcing someone to either cancel and proceed VFR or ship them back to departure for vectors tells me you need to read the book more. Those two things are exactly what 7-4-1 says you don’t have to do… and no, it does not require an LOA or waiver.
 
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TushingPin said:
I don't think anyone is saying you can't, but if the pilot chooses to do that, wouldn't they be canceling their IFR?
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No. We have aircraft every day on an IFR flight plan which is a through clearance to multiple airports. They do an ILS, then beat up the pattern. When they are done, they continue on thier IFR flight plan. The pattern is a VFR maneuver in VMC at a controlled field. The IFR plan can stay open and they can do VFR shit while being visually seperated.

You can give an aircraft an IFR clearance to a point, they can climb to VFR on top, and maintain VFR on top without canceling the IFR flight plan.
 
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ManBearPig said:
If the field is VFR, why cant you have someone who did an ILS enter the tower pattern? We do that every single day.
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Our glorious leaders here say we must solicit and IFR cancellation to have an IFR stay in the tower pattern. Class C up/down if that matters.

eltors0 said:
I don’t see how this is still an argument in any facility. They are just simply VFR on the go and I don’t care what anyone says. It’s fucking brain rot level of stupid to argue anything different.
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VA is a visual maneuver on and IFR flight plan. They are never VFR, even on the go. However 7-4-1 is clear they can proceed visually in the tower pattern, but they are still IFR throughout.
 
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eltors0 said:
I don’t see how this is still an argument in any facility. They are just simply VFR on the go and I don’t care what anyone says. It’s fucking brain rot level of stupid to argue anything different.
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No idea how your response is getting the votes it is. This is literally the exact opposite of what the 7110.65 says. Go read CF's response at the top of the page.

Jay-Jay Jet Plane said:
Our glorious leaders here say we must solicit and IFR cancellation to have an IFR stay in the tower pattern. Class C up/down if that matters.
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Your glorious leaders are idiots who don't know how to read the .65, but what else is new?

SquawkHijack said:
How are you going to say that 7-4-1 spells this out clearly and then spew this nonsense?

7-4-1 says an IFR going around on a visual approach may continue to proceed visually and enter the traffic pattern for landing. So yes, the tower can absolutely have someone IFR in the pattern, you just have to maintain applicable IFR/wake separation. Forcing someone to either cancel and proceed VFR or ship them back to departure for vectors tells me you need to read the book more. Those two things are exactly what 7-4-1 says you don’t have to do… and no, it does not require an LOA or waiver.
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A visual approach is not the same as an ILS, obviously. In VMC I agree that there isn't a real problem with letting someone who was cleared for the ILS stay in the tower pattern, but to be book legal they need to be issued a clearance for a visual approach or they need to cancel IFR.

And I've seen enough LOAs that say "Tower may clear an aircraft for a visual approach" to make me think that it isn't something a tower can do by default.
 
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Jay-Jay Jet Plane said:
Our glorious leaders here say we must solicit and IFR cancellation to have an IFR stay in the tower pattern. Class C up/down if that matters.


VA is a visual maneuver on and IFR flight plan. They are never VFR, even on the go. However 7-4-1 is clear they can proceed visually in the tower pattern, but they are still IFR throughout.
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If the aircraft doing the VFR pattern work has an IFR FDIO strip showing a delay at your airport (for that very pattern work), do you remove the strip in the FDIO when the pilot accepts your solicitation of the IFR cancellation, or do you leave the strip in the system & have approach just re-clear them IFR on the go back to the final destination airport?
 
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Termine said:
A visual approach is not the same as an ILS, obviously. In VMC I agree that there isn't a real problem with letting someone who was cleared for the ILS stay in the tower pattern, but to be book legal they need to be issued a clearance for a visual approach or they need to cancel IFR.

And I've seen enough LOAs that say "Tower may clear an aircraft for a visual approach" to make me think that it isn't something a tower can do by default.
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Don’t bother with this dip shit. He obviously can’t read or he’d know we were talking about a missed from the ILS not visual.
 
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DOD4Life said:
If the aircraft doing the VFR pattern work has an IFR FDIO strip showing a delay at your airport (for that very pattern work), do you remove the strip in the FDIO when the pilot accepts your solicitation of the IFR cancellation, or do you leave the strip in the system & have approach just re-clear them IFR on the go back to the final destination airport?
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I'm just a dumb center controller but we have a towered D that military A/C use. They'll request approaches with option radar for another approach or option tower to go beat up the pattern. For the latter, tower calls to let us know they're VFR with them and then requests a release when they're ready to RTB.
 
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GroundClutter said:
I'm just a dumb center controller but we have a towered D that military A/C use. They'll request approaches with option radar for another approach or option tower to go beat up the pattern. For the latter, tower calls to let us know they're VFR with them and then requests a release when they're ready to RTB.
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Makes sense. I’m hoping they don’t remove the strip in the FDIO at the facility in question as it seems that would be a disservice to the pilot.
 
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DOD4Life said:
If the aircraft doing the VFR pattern work has an IFR FDIO strip showing a delay at your airport (for that very pattern work), do you remove the strip in the FDIO when the pilot accepts your solicitation of the IFR cancellation, or do you leave the strip in the system & have approach just re-clear them IFR on the go back to the final destination airport?
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In our case the vast majority of our IFRs into the pattern are military that have a flight plan to us and a separate one back home.
 
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