Class D arrival WT

[MJ]

In a class D tower, is radar wake turbulence separation applicable between a larger VFR a/c followed by a smaller IFR a/c on final?
Why or why not.

Spoiler: Answer from the FAA

the short answer is aircraft would not receive radar separation from the VFR tower, in accordance with 5-5-4. Chapter 5 is radar separation and VFR tower controllers are normally not operating under Chapter 5, Radar. However, wake turbulence procedures still apply in accordance with 2-2-19&20 and 3-10-3, which are advisory in nature. The inbound IFR would receive the approach clearance from radar approach control and communication would be transferred to the tower (typically, at least 7 to 10 miles out). Radar Approach may not even know what type aircraft is in the VFR pattern. Either way, the requirement would be for the tower to ensure Wake Turbulence advisories with the VFR aircraft.

 

[wikdevo]

The original question was asking about radar wake turbulence separation in a non-radar Class Delta tower, so the radar wake turbulence rules you quoted from 5-5-4 h do not apply. Radar rules don't apply in a non-radar environment. Plain and simple.

And since there is no wake turbulence separation for a small behind a large in a non-radar environment, tower-applied visual separation can be used. We do it all the time.

so you take my response about approach co triller separation and try to make it about what you do.. i was just clearing the air.

if you are a non radar, class d, basic tower then you don't have to worry about wake turbulence separation unless it's a departure. my point being, you cannot use controller applied visual sep in lieu of wake turbulence separation.

 

[wikdevo]

Question 2:
Scenario-
You have a C172 in the pattern doing touch and gos. A GLF5 is ready to depart full length before the C172 turns base. You clear the GLF5 for takeoff.
A) Do you say,"C172, traffic a GLF5 departure roll, advise traffic in sight." Make the C172 see the GLF5 prior to giving the wake turbulence advisory and the touch and go clearance.
OR
B) Say something like,"C172, traffic GLF5 departure roll, caution wake turbulence, wind xxx@xx, runway xx cleared touch and go."

A, we do it with heavies and small+ as well.

 

[wikdevo]

Either have the Cessna report traffic in sight and tell him to maintain visual separation, caution wake turbulence OR clear him low approach only.

you don't have to tell him to maintain visual separation anymore. that was an old rule and has since been changed.

 

[wikdevo]

Given the aircraft wants touch and go specifically then yes basically stop him on the runway and call their departure or manipulate their pattern to insure time requirement. Unless GLF5 departure is insight and issue cautionary with option clearance.

agreed.. he either
A: gets him in sight and is cleared for the option with a cautionary
B: gets extended for the time interval
C: full stop

 

[rugbydog11]

you don't have to tell him to maintain visual separation anymore. that was an old rule and has since been changed.

I remember it going away and coming back within a week. I didnt know it went away again.

 

[Stinger]

you don't have to tell him to maintain visual separation anymore. that was an old rule and has since been changed.

The day before the "maintain visual" was supposed to go away, the FAA canceled the notice/change. I was doing the "new way" with just a cautionary for about 6 months before I looked in the 7110 again and didn't see the change included. That's when I investigated on the FAA site and saw it never took effect.

 

[wikdevo]

The day before the "maintain visual" was supposed to go away, the FAA canceled the notice/change. I was doing the "new way" with just a cautionary for about 6 months before I looked in the 7110 again and didn't see the change included. That's when I investigated on the FAA site and saw it never took effect.

what are you saying?

 

[Stinger]

what are you saying?

It was rambly I know.....But the 7110 says that visual separation is needed for a small aircraft doing a touch-and-go immediately after a larger weight class departs, unless you have 3 minutes.

 

[wikdevo]

does it say for required phraseology to say "maintain visual separation "

 

[CaptainObvious]

So you basically stop all pattern traffic if a larger aircraft is departing than what is in the local pattern?

Yes, unless they'll accept a low approach or report traffic in sight

 

[CaptainObvious]

does it say for required phraseology to say "maintain visual separation "

No, just have visual separation/spacing. You don't have to tell them maintain visual

 

[Stinger]

does it say for required phraseology to say "maintain visual separation "

This is the current wording of 3-9-7: "3. Successive touch-and-go or stop-and-go operations are conducted with any aircraft following an aircraft in the pattern that requires wake turbulence separation, or an aircraft departing the same runway that requires wake turbulence separation in accordance with subparagraphs a1, a2, a3, or a4 (except for super aircraft), provided the pilot is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the larger aircraft."


This is 3-9-7 from the 7110.65T in 2010: "3. Successive touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are conducted with a small aircraft following another small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft in the pattern, or a small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the small aircraft is maintaining visual separation/ spacing behind the preceding large aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the large aircraft."

So no, it doesn't and never did have phraseology to "maintain visual separation."

 

[rugbydog11]

2. Pilot-applied visual separation.
(a) Maintain communication with at least one
of the aircraft involved and ensure there is an ability
to communicate with the other aircraft.
(b) The pilot sees another aircraft and is
instructed to maintain visual separation from the
aircraft as follows:
(1) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft.
Include position, direction, type, and, unless it is
obvious, the other aircraft’s intention.
(2) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot
that the other aircraft is in sight.
(3) Instruct the pilot to maintain visual
separation from that aircraft.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(ACID), TRAFFIC, (clock position and distance),
(direction) BOUND, (type of aircraft), (intentions and
other relevant information).
If required,
(ACID), REPORT TRAFFIC IN SIGHT or DO YOU HAVE
IT IN SIGHT?
If the pilot reports traffic in sight, or the answer is in the
affirmative,
(ACID), MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION
NOTE−
Towers must use the procedures contained in Paragraph
3-1-6, Traffic Information, Subparagraph b or c, as
appropriate.
(c) If the pilot reports the traffic in sight and
will maintain visual separation from it (the pilot must
state both), the controller may “approve” the
operation instead of restating the instructions.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(ACID), APPROVED.
NOTE−
Pilot-applied visual separation between aircraft is
achieved when the controller has instructed the pilot to
maintain visual separation and the pilot acknowledges
with their call sign or when the controller has approved
pilot-initiated visual separation.

 

[rugbydog11]

I think since 7-2 is a referwnce in all of the 3-whatever's, you still need to have the wording in there... Its only legit if they say "have it in sight and will maintain visual" or if you tell them. Well that's what the 7-2-1 note says.

 

[Stinger]

I think since 7-2 is a referwnce in all of the 3-whatever's, you still need to have the wording in there... Its only legit if they say "have it in sight and will maintain visual" or if you tell them. Well that's what the 7-2-1 note says.

Yep, if controller initiated they need to be told to "maintain visual separation" and then have some sort of reply that includes at least the callsign.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Yep, if controller initiated they need to be told to "maintain visual separation" and then have some sort of reply that includes at least the callsign.

Yes but visual is for IFR in lieu of other separation. We never tell VFRs to maintain visual separation

 

[rugbydog11]

Yes but visual is for IFR in lieu of other separation. We never tell VFRs to maintain visual separation

Its says visual separation is being maintained by the pilot in lieu of your 3 minute times wake turb. Its so they keep an eye on the rotation point of the departure and do the option where the wake would least effect them. I think its pretty black and white on the visual separation chapter. It doesnt say its only for IFR, its for lower than any other standard separation.

 

[Stinger]

Yes but visual is for IFR in lieu of other separation. We never tell VFRs to maintain visual separation

Then why does the 7110 have "visual separation" listed in the pattern traffic section?

 

[rugbydog11]

7−2−1. VISUAL SEPARATION
Visual separation may be applied when other
approved separation is assured before and after the
application of visual separation. To ensure that other
separation will exist, consider aircraft performance,
wake turbulence, closure rate, routes of flight, known
weather conditions, and aircraft position. Weather
conditions must allow the aircraft to remain within
sight until other separation exists.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Then why does the 7110 have "visual separation" listed in the pattern traffic section?

Do you tell every VFR pattern guy to maintain visual separation from the traffic he's following?