2023 FAA Reauthorization - consolidating low-level TRACONs

[pedaNTIc]

What are the odds of that happening again though?

I hear you, but…what were the odds of it happening in the first place? Oh well I’m sure those ‘insider threat’ CBIs will save us.

And as you consolidate everything into one big building, especially if it ends up some ‘super center’ with remote camera towers (essentially rooms full of sim screens like the tower cab labs at AAC)…all your eggs are in a handful of baskets. Sure, it saves money on security and utilities, but makes a juicy target for terrorism, military strikes, natural disasters, utility failure, etc.

And, sabotage can still happen.

 

[32andBelow]

I hear you, but…what were the odds of it happening in the first place? Oh well I’m sure those ‘insider threat’ CBIs will save us.

And as you consolidate everything into one big building, especially if it ends up some ‘super center’ with remote camera towers (essentially rooms full of sim screens like the tower cab labs at AAC)…all your eggs are in a handful of baskets. Sure, it saves money on security and utilities, but makes a juicy target for terrorism, military strikes, natural disasters, utility failure, etc.

And, sabotage can still happen.

Since we are also the atc for the military I don’t think they’d let that happen. I’m sure they see value in having the centers dispersed around just like the bases are.

 

[DankVectorz]

No, but congress has to sign off on it. This is why the n90 thing is messed up. Faa wants to consolidate and realign airspace from n90 to phl. At face value this should be subject to the 804 process. The FAAs internal opinion is “nuh-uh” and natca said “well, if the FAA says it doesn’t fall under 804 it must be correct, why would they lie about that?”

Congress finds out and is like wtf do you think you’re doing!? And now it’s on pause.

Another fun fact is that in one of the Reauthorization bills (I think the congress one but might be senate, can’t remember) there is language currently saying “n90 ewr will move to PHL within 6 months”.

 

[Bandit117]

Another fun fact is that in one of the Reauthorization bills (I think the congress one but might be senate, can’t remember) there is language currently saying “n90 ewr will move to PHL within 6 months”.

Yeah that’s the end around, make an exception to the 804 law legislatively. Did it get signed?

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Another fun fact is that in one of the Reauthorization bills (I think the congress one but might be senate, can’t remember) there is language currently saying “n90 ewr will move to PHL within 6 months”.

I love that that’s in there, NATCA will say they have to move it now because “it’s the law”.

 

[Sassyquatch]

Facilities get told huge lies to get them to sign off on 804s. Pretty sure GEG was told they'd be a level 8 after their 804, hasn't happened yet afaik...

Yup. Were told we would be an 8 no problem before 804 cutover. Had 7 trainees as soon as COVID restrictions let up. Then got 804 dumped on us with existing people still in training, and have had about 10+ more people in training after 804. Then had to train all the existing CPCs on the new sectors. It was a complete dumpster fire.

804 Severely understaffed the facility and gave us a target staffing # that is still not enough people to staff the facility once you factor in people leaving for NCEPT & A114 details (& some people medically dq'd, God forbid we have any more). Not to mention, the target number was collaborated between a NATCA rep from a different facility and management. Our facility fought for a higher number, and our own union just bent over for the FAA to f us.

So 6 day work weeks for over a year for everyone & for the foreseeable future, SO CLOSE from being level 8 (should be closer once December numbers come out, but it's excruciating) and we're now going into our slow season so won't be level 8 any time soon. A level 7 should not be on mandatory OT for forever. This is a joke.

I was still in training during cutover, so I didn't even get the 2% bonus for certifying on extra positions. Hard to fully complain since the sectors we picked up are pretty slow, but now we have SO many people who are not proficient on our only busy sector thats close to working level 9 traffic in the summer. & There's so many more procedures & approaches for us to know that it wasn't even worth it imo. Of course the FAA wants to save money but 804 should automatically include sectorizing these places & an automatic bump up 1 level. It's extremely unsafe but we've all gotten tired of writing atsaps & complaining. Plus we're also extremely fatigued at this point lol

 

[Move78]

Yup. Were told we would be an 8 no problem before 804 cutover. Had 7 trainees as soon as COVID restrictions let up. Then got 804 dumped on us with existing people still in training, and have had about 10+ more people in training after 804. Then had to train all the existing CPCs on the new sectors. It was a complete dumpster fire.

804 Severely understaffed the facility and gave us a target staffing # that is still not enough people to staff the facility once you factor in people leaving for NCEPT & A114 details (& some people medically dq'd, God forbid we have any more). Not to mention, the target number was collaborated between a NATCA rep from a different facility and management. Our facility fought for a higher number, and our own union just bent over for the FAA to f us.

So 6 day work weeks for over a year for everyone & for the foreseeable future, SO CLOSE from being level 8 (should be closer once December numbers come out, but it's excruciating) and we're now going into our slow season so won't be level 8 any time soon. A level 7 should not be on mandatory OT for forever. This is a joke.

I was still in training during cutover, so I didn't even get the 2% bonus for certifying on extra positions. Hard to fully complain since the sectors we picked up are pretty slow, but now we have SO many people who are not proficient on our only busy sector thats close to working level 9 traffic in the summer. & There's so many more procedures & approaches for us to know that it wasn't even worth it imo. Of course the FAA wants to save money but 804 should automatically include sectorizing these places & an automatic bump up 1 level. It's extremely unsafe but we've all gotten tired of writing atsaps & complaining. Plus we're also extremely fatigued at this point lol

Who told you you’d be an 8? How long has it been since the cutover? It takes 12 months for the CI collect a full data set.
Also going into slow season doesn't reduce your CI.

 

[Sassyquatch]

Who told you you’d be an 8? How long has it been since the cutover? It takes 12 months for the CI collect a full data set.
Also going into slow season doesn't reduce your CI.

Cutover was Oct 2022. I'm pretty sure the NATCA rep who was in charge of 804 told us but it was through the grapevine. I believe our local union rep was told from someone else outside the building too and we're still holding out hope but it basically just leveled off last month right right below level 8. Numerous people are under the impression that the # will be decreasing for the next couple of months and tbh I really don't know how tci is even calculated. We have a controller figuring out and working on our tci too since inconsistencies have been found and it's been an issue that our count isn't even correct.

For all we know, we could've been showing level 8 for awhile but any time they find out that something has been counted incorrectly & go to fix it, something else messes up in the system.

& Since I'm a pessimist, I think it's all by design that our tci numbers are possibly incorrect. The whole point of 804 is for the FAA to save money & if 30+ controllers get bumped up a level, are they really even saving money?

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Yup. Were told we would be an 8 no problem before 804 cutover. Had 7 trainees as soon as COVID restrictions let up. Then got 804 dumped on us with existing people still in training, and have had about 10+ more people in training after 804. Then had to train all the existing CPCs on the new sectors. It was a complete dumpster fire.

804 Severely understaffed the facility and gave us a target staffing # that is still not enough people to staff the facility once you factor in people leaving for NCEPT & A114 details (& some people medically dq'd, God forbid we have any more). Not to mention, the target number was collaborated between a NATCA rep from a different facility and management. Our facility fought for a higher number, and our own union just bent over for the FAA to f us.

So 6 day work weeks for over a year for everyone & for the foreseeable future, SO CLOSE from being level 8 (should be closer once December numbers come out, but it's excruciating) and we're now going into our slow season so won't be level 8 any time soon. A level 7 should not be on mandatory OT for forever. This is a joke.

I was still in training during cutover, so I didn't even get the 2% bonus for certifying on extra positions. Hard to fully complain since the sectors we picked up are pretty slow, but now we have SO many people who are not proficient on our only busy sector thats close to working level 9 traffic in the summer. & There's so many more procedures & approaches for us to know that it wasn't even worth it imo. Of course the FAA wants to save money but 804 should automatically include sectorizing these places & an automatic bump up 1 level. It's extremely unsafe but we've all gotten tired of writing atsaps & complaining. Plus we're also extremely fatigued at this point lol

Man you got to look at it the right way. You are making huge money with OT in a low COLA area and like you said there is only one hard position in the building out of about 8 or so. So you probably only work a couple busy sessions a week for 150K. And if Santa is right (I doubt it, you saw how the powers that be lied to you already), but if he is right about ABACUS, you will be a 8 for sure.

 

[Acquired Taste]

Man you got to look at it the right way. You are making huge money with OT in a low COLA area and like you said there is only one hard position in the building out of about 8 or so. So you probably only work a couple busy sessions a week for 150K. And if Santa is right (I doubt it, you saw how the powers that be lied to you already), but if he is right about ABACUS, you will be a 8 for sure.

I doubt they have 8 positions. Tower is only doing 180 ops/day and it looks like about 90% are professional pilots with very little GA. I'd guess 2 positions in the tower all day. Sassyquatch how many radar scopes are open on a regular basis?

 

[Sassyquatch]

Man you got to look at it the right way. You are making huge money with OT in a low COLA area and like you said there is only one hard position in the building out of about 8 or so. So you probably only work a couple busy sessions a week for 150K. And if Santa is right (I doubt it, you saw how the powers that be lied to you already), but if he is right about ABACUS, you will be a 8 for sure.

Sure the money is good, but I made $120k this year with 350 hours of OT. Cost of living here is cheaper than Cali but it's not what it used to be 5 years ago. All my coworkers houses have increased in value by 2 or 3 times. What used to be $200k here is now $500k. And most houses don't even look like they should cost half a million here.

I know I'm fortunate enough that I do very little work for the amount of money I make, but I made almost $30k more this year in OT. I would prefer the quality of life that comes with 2 days off, not at a level 7 to chase dollars. The burn out is real and I physically and mentally cannot work this much OT for the next 20 years. If I wanted to make money, which I will pursue in a couple years, I rather do it at a level 11 or 12. I want to leave but can't.

I don't like working slow sectors. Good for people who don't want to work, but it's mind numbing to sit at a dead sector all day every day, then get your ass kicked on our busy sector that we already never get to work with all the training going on & everyone fighting to work it while they can. I'm not the only one who feels this way either but there's really not much to do about it besides ERR out of here.

We normally have 5 radar positions open, we combine 2 of them when slow, & 2 positions in the tower. Possibly 1 handoff as well (2 handoffs are rare) & tracon data (that we don't have staffing to open) makes for 8-10 total positions max. Spokane can be an ass kicker & Coeur d'Alene is way too busy to not be a towered airport.

 

[Soul_Controller]

I'm actually a bit shocked at a lot of the "we were told." The only reason I even know a little bit about TCI is because the 804 team pretty much said an upgrade was dicey and a lower TCI was very possible. (Our 804 didn't happen)

 

[KP-ATC]

They were never actually told they would be a 9 by anyone who was “in the know.”

That was an assumption based on rough estimates that were ran. The ATM at the time thought it was a foregone conclusion that it was going to be a 9 and that’s possibly where people were “told” it was going to be a 9.

Even Zilonis, who was the RVP at the time during initial meetings, didn’t commit to any level upgrade other than it would initially go to a 7 since GRR was already a 7. They couldn’t do anything else until there was real TCI data.

I guess you never met Robillard

 

[Mr. Miner]

Sometimes it’s not all about the money. We are providing a service to our country, which in my opinion is a great honor.

you joke, but a guy in my class @ OKC legitimately told everyone that he took to job to defend the constitution

 

[AB19]

Sure the money is good, but I made $120k this year with 350 hours of OT. Cost of living here is cheaper than Cali but it's not what it used to be 5 years ago. All my coworkers houses have increased in value by 2 or 3 times. What used to be $200k here is now $500k. And most houses don't even look like they should cost half a million here.

I know I'm fortunate enough that I do very little work for the amount of money I make, but I made almost $30k more this year in OT. I would prefer the quality of life that comes with 2 days off, not at a level 7 to chase dollars. The burn out is real and I physically and mentally cannot work this much OT for the next 20 years. If I wanted to make money, which I will pursue in a couple years, I rather do it at a level 11 or 12. I want to leave but can't.

I don't like working slow sectors. Good for people who don't want to work, but it's mind numbing to sit at a dead sector all day every day, then get your ass kicked on our busy sector that we already never get to work with all the training going on & everyone fighting to work it while they can. I'm not the only one who feels this way either but there's really not much to do about it besides ERR out of here.

We normally have 5 radar positions open, we combine 2 of them when slow, & 2 positions in the tower. Possibly 1 handoff as well (2 handoffs are rare) & tracon data (that we don't have staffing to open) makes for 8-10 total positions max. Spokane can be an ass kicker & Coeur d'Alene is way too busy to not be a towered airport.

I get this, I transferred to a 12 in March, so half way between 7 and 12 pay, worked maybe 16 days, and made 25-30k more than I did at my 7 working 48 days of OT

 

[SolicitSVFR]

you joke, but a guy in my class @ OKC legitimately told everyone that he took to job to defend the constitution

This made me lol HARD. Wonder if it’s the same guy I used to work with. Early 20’s, overweight, never been in the military. Used to wear his PIV/ CAC out in town like they were dog tags. Said that people always asked him what the badge was for and what he does for a living, and he said something along the lines of “I work for the feds, and unless you have a security clearance, my job is need to know” I busted out laughing

 

[Sassyquatch]

I get this, I transferred to a 12 in March, so half way between 7 and 12 pay, worked maybe 16 days, and made 25-30k more than I did at my 7 working 48 days of OT

Did you get out through the ncept lottery?

 

[AB19]

Did you get out through the ncept lottery?

No I did the bid