3120.4 Update

[Ad1234]

Thank you. This makes more sense at least and will be better. I’ve seen a CSC turn into just a SC, then later in the day have another CSC. Only after controllers had recommended and supe wanted to see better controlling for certifying.

also brings to question, say the trainee has 1 trainer... majority would be supe and trainee?

Training team has to have at least 2 OJTI according to the order.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

Skill Development

Rather than guess on here, this is what the order actually says. no where does it say 50 percent, and its specifies at least some portion of who that majority has to be, the supe. the supe and the trainee on a team of 4 isn't the majority. so at least 1 ojti now has to agree.


a. The CSC must:

(1) Be conducted following a Training Team meeting where a majority of the team members recommend a CSC. The OS must be among the majority.

To me this just makes it mandatory a discussion of a Certification skills check must occur and be documented prior to being conducted. This should prevent a supe just checking someone out or it gives the OJTI the opportunity to convince a supe that a DEV is ready if they need convincing. this is a good addition to the training order and makes it mandatory the OJTI have more input. the team should be talking and be on the same page if someone is ready or not, this just makes the discussion mandatory. Of course some facilities wont do this or will take it some other way but that happens already and is the nature of things. oh well.

Is this the same for an OS in training?

 

[Rico]

Is this the same for an OS in training?

Why would it distinguish?

 

[Ad1234]

Is this the same for an OS in training?

OS-IT is included in the trainee definition.

 

[Morgan_Freeman_But_Not]

There’s also a new section giving the FacRep specific duties/responsibilities.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

Why would it distinguish?

Just an honest question. I don't have access to the .4 or I'd look myself.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Just an honest question. I don't have access to the .4 or I'd look myself.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_3120.4R.pdf

Now you do!

 

[Congressional]

Lab grading is also transitioning to an average of your three evaluations like the academy.

 

[Stinger]

I mean doesn’t the sup always have to agree to do the checkride? It’s to prevent the sup from giving the check ride with 0 trainer recommendations.

it depends how many people are on your training team. Like I had 3. So it would be 2 controllers i thought. Maybe maybe just 1 controller and 1 sup?

This is the real question. Is it controller agreement or one controller and supe agrees?

I think 1 sup and 1 controller. If you somehow had 4 trainers then you’d need 2 trainers and a sup

Training team must consist of at least 2 and no more than 3 OJTIs, plus 1 supervisor.
To get 50% certification concurrence, it requires at least one OJTI and the supervisor.
Until this, supervisors were able to certify someone even if the OJTIs didn't give a recommendation.
Supervisors are also not allowed to conduct training anymore. They usually said they couldn't, but there was no prohibition on it, unlike now.

Lab grading is also transitioning to an average of your three evaluations like the academy.

That's been in effect since July 2019 with the graded scenarios.

 

[ClearanceClarence]

What was the old requirement to get a check ride? Was it just either the OJTI or the sup could recommend one and now it needs to be 50% of the training team?

 

[32andBelow]

What was the old requirement to get a check ride? Was it just either the OJTI or the sup could recommend one and now it needs to be 50% of the training team?

I mean it was basically just the sup. Cus the sup could do it without the ojti. Or ignore the ojti and not do it. I’ve even seen a sup give a ride when the trainees sup was out of town

 

[Acquired Taste]

I mean it was basically just the sup. Cus the sup could do it without the ojti. Or ignore the ojti and not do it. I’ve even seen a sup give a ride when the trainees sup was out of town

I mean before this new thing, people at my fac were regularly recommended by people not on their team. One prior experience trainee even recommended themselves because "they know when they are ready, this isn't the first place they've been." Idk if that was taken seriously, that was before I got here but that's what I've heard. My trainee who I didn't think was ready was recommended by someone else who was more of their friend and didn't think much of me and wanted to prove a point. I guess this new update will help deal with some of that bs

 

[CF]

I mean before this new thing, people at my fac were regularly recommended by people not on their team. One prior experience trainee even recommended themselves because "they know when they are ready, this isn't the first place they've been." Idk if that was taken seriously, that was before I got here but that's what I've heard. My trainee who I didn't think was ready was recommended by someone else who was more of their friend and didn't think much of me and wanted to prove a point. I guess this new update will help deal with some of that bs

We had a trainee recommended themselves a while back. Everyone got a kick out of that.

 

[32andBelow]

I mean before this new thing, people at my fac were regularly recommended by people not on their team. One prior experience trainee even recommended themselves because "they know when they are ready, this isn't the first place they've been." Idk if that was taken seriously, that was before I got here but that's what I've heard. My trainee who I didn't think was ready was recommended by someone else who was more of their friend and didn't think much of me and wanted to prove a point. I guess this new update will help deal with some of that bs

Although you can still manipulate it cus NATCA tells you to fire your trainers if you are having trouble with them. Lol.

 

[Spaceforce]

Although you can still manipulate it cus NATCA tells you to fire your trainers if you are having trouble with them. Lol.

It’s the trainees career. Do what’s best for you

 

[32andBelow]

It’s the trainees career. Do what’s best for you

For sure.

 

[Ad1234]

What was the old requirement to get a check ride? Was it just either the OJTI or the sup could recommend one and now it needs to be 50% of the training team?

It’s not 50 percent, it’s worded as a majority. 50 percent obviously isn’t a majority.

It used to be worded that to have a certification skills check you had to reach minimum hours or be at maximum. It did not specify a recommendation requirment and left that up to the local orders. Many local training orders I’ve seen that have a requirement do break it down to what is expected, but I’ve also seen many facilities say that “it’s just always been that way here” and nothing was written down.

 

[fivebyfive]

Simulation Requirements have changed also.

Instead of a requirement for minimum/maximum hours in the sim, there is now a requirement for a minimum/maximum amount of simulation scenarios.

As far as Tower /Terminal goes, GC gets a minimum/max number of 3 different types of scenarios depending on facility level.
Instructional Scenarios, Pre-evaluation Scenarios, Evaluation Scenarios.
See Appendix D-10/D-11 for more details.

LC and Radar Control gets the same 3 types of scenarios as GC does but also gets Recovery Scenarios

Recovery Scenarios: "The scenarios must provide an interactive instructional environment in which the instructor and trainee are able to discuss methods of recovery, strategies, and alternatives that assist in re-establishing separation. Recovery scenarios may include converging aircraft, aircraft simultaneously climbing and descending, compression, aircraft missing read-back, similar-sounding call sign aircraft, aircraft responding to a TCAS resolution advisory (TCAS-RA), loss of data blocks (target only), transposed call signs, lost communication, emergencies, etc."

Both recovery scenarios and pre-evaluation scenarios do not count toward the graded average.

All of this info is found in Appendix D of the 3120.4R

 

[CoffeeIV]

TSEW is now mandatory transferring from an 8 or below to a 9 or higher TRACON.

Has anyone actually found TSEW very useful?