FAA Moves to Accelerate Air Traffic Controller Hiring by Enhancing College Training Program

[GulfCharlie]

Fluff piece or not, NATCA has been silent. They are noticeably absent from these segments and NOT advocating for their members. Especially on things they’ve spent significant time and dues money on creating, like the CRWG spreadsheet. The FAA managed to get somebody to appear to talk about their efforts. Where is NATCA? Were they not invited or uninterested? They have a whole team dedicated to PA like this but they’re probably working from home, unchecked, hitting the gym in the morning and mowing the lawn by noon with an ice cold beer in their hand cause they’re definitely not putting together easily digestible information and data about how poor staffing is and how overworked controllers are for the public to see on news segments such as these. In order to change the public’s perception of ATC they’d actually have to try.

So this particular segment takes place at academy, now keep in mind I am not defending NATCA, where the FAA completely rules the roost without ANY input. New hires are not eligible to join NATCA until they report to their facility, the curriculum is decided by the FAA, the scenarios designed by the FAA, having a NATCA presence for these particular segments does not make sense when the agency can spin the narrative however they please on their home turf.

That said, yes I would like some rebuttal out in the field from NATCA. NATCA should be hammering home all, from all sorts of angles, the attrition/challenges/ and reality of controlling.

 

[SquawkHijack]

Wonder if they can actually start direct staffing to level 8 and 9. If the CRWG passes, some faciltiies needs an additional 10+ CPCs and we are already on 6 10s.

I disagree with letting any prior experience new hire get offered a level 8 or above. First off, (to directly pertain to this thread) they’re a CTI grad and likely only have experience working some class delta full of general aviation. That experience has little to no business walking straight into a level 8/9 to begin training.

Furthermore, when that happens, they essentially get double precedence over current CPCs that would like to transfer to level 8 facilities in that, 1: a current CPC hired under prior exp may very well have not been offered any level 8’s on their list when others do, and 2: that prior exp new hire gets a level 8 on their list that lots of other current CPCs are trying to ERR to and it just isn’t fair to everyone else that already WORKS for the agency and has certified through training whilst building good experience.

Where I draw the line with level 8’s is because as we all know, typically priors are offered 7’s and below with an exception to experience. Whether the agency likes it or not, we need to stick with placing prior new hires in lower level facilities (7 and below) and give the current CPCs stuck at those lower level facilities a chance to move up. Let’s face it, lvl 9-12 facs are only staffed with CPCs that win the NCEPT lottery anyway (with the exception of the N90 OTS bid) so it makes no sense to offer someone an 8 with a good chance of it being a country club with zero time in the agency and consider the current staffing situation. It’s not only highly unfair, but it represents the very poor personnel management that is AviatIon Careers/HR.

 

[NotKC]

I disagree with letting any prior experience new hire get offered a level 8 or above. First off, (to directly pertain to this thread) they’re a CTI grad and likely only have experience working some class delta full of general aviation. That experience has little to no business walking straight into a level 8/9 to begin training.

Furthermore, when that happens, they essentially get double precedence over current CPCs that would like to transfer to level 8 facilities in that, 1: a current CPC hired under prior exp may very well have not been offered any level 8’s on their list when others do, and 2: that prior exp new hire gets a level 8 on their list that lots of other current CPCs are trying to ERR to and it just isn’t fair to everyone else that already WORKS for the agency and has certified through training whilst building good experience.

Where I draw the line with level 8’s is because as we all know, typically priors are offered 7’s and below with an exception to experience. Whether the agency likes it or not, we need to stick with placing prior new hires in lower level facilities (7 and below) and give the current CPCs stuck at those lower level facilities a chance to move up. Let’s face it, lvl 9-12 facs are only staffed with CPCs that win the NCEPT lottery anyway (with the exception of the N90 OTS bid) so it makes no sense to offer someone an 8 with a good chance of it being a country club with zero time in the agency and consider the current staffing situation. It’s not only highly unfair, but it represents the very poor personnel management that is AviatIon Careers/HR.

Problem: no one errs to 8s and 9s, they go straight to the 10+. Plus, why would it not make sense to give prior military experience hires somewhat of a longer leash to go up levels compared to a cti grad? Obviously not all military experience is created equal but they've done the job before for a few years before getting into the agency. At my 8 up down, we have at least 6 people trying to punch but can't because we only get the very rare prior experience hire, and then hardship transfers. They really need to focus on placing people at locations they want to be at long term. Because training takes time and then when they transfer you gotta start over. Everybody in the agency training for 5 years because they went to a place they didn't want to go just to get their foot in the door, and then transfer to their forever facility is bad for the agency and its bad for the controllers by doubling the training workload.

 

[abc1234]

I work at a little OT available area. If we hit our new CRWG number I don’t know how we’d work more than 2 hours a day. It would be comical to say the least

You're probably considering that all of those controllers would be working the boards all day every day. I think the point is to have extra controllers available for recurrent training, elms, running the labs, OJTI, etc etc.

We also should absolutely be scheduling 2 or more over the numbers so that spot leave is available. Part of reducing fatigue and stress among controllers is giving scheduling flexibility and time off. The FAA hates this one simple trick to increase safety!

 

[abc1234]

Anyone know where to find the updated CRWG numbers for each facility? I don’t even know if my own changed.

An easy Google but the ATC Workforce Plan 2023-2032 lists the numbers in the appendix starting in page 52

 

[Phillytroll69]

An easy Google but the ATC Workforce Plan 2023-2032 lists the numbers in the appendix starting in page 52

Is this the crwg or the faa numbers though I didn't think it was implemented

 

[abc1234]

Is this the crwg or the faa numbers though I didn't think it was implemented

Both. They list every facility with staffing target numbers and CRWG numbers.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Both. They list every facility with staffing target numbers and CRWG numbers.

Oooo didn't know it got added sweet

 

[FlightOfTheShortGuy]

An easy Google but the ATC Workforce Plan 2023-2032 lists the numbers in the appendix starting in page 52

Thanks, I didn’t get picked up at DEN so I’m off the deep end

 

[Mike Kilo]

Thanks, I didn’t get picked up at DEN so I’m off the deep end

Gotta be a FacRep at a level 7 or below to have a shot…

 

[SquawkHijack]

Problem: no one errs to 8s and 9s, they go straight to the 10+. Plus, why would it not make sense to give prior military experience hires somewhat of a longer leash to go up levels compared to a cti grad?

There are plenty of lvl 8-9 ERRs, you don’t seem very familiar with lvl 5-7 up downs cuz they definitely have it way worse. Merely explained that CTIs don’t have relevant experience for 8s for the sake of the thread.

And read what I said again, I said prior exp new hires shouldn’t get offered 8s, never did I discriminate against whether they’re CTI or .mil.

At my 8 up down, we have at least 6 people trying to punch but can't because we only get the very rare prior experience hire, and then hardship transfers.

Your facility is an anomaly amongst level 8s. Now you know how just about all lvl 5-7 controllers feel.

They really need to focus on placing people at locations they want to be at long term. Because training takes time and then when they transfer you gotta start over.

We’ve all been saying that for years and it’s never gonna happen. Somebody points out what makes sense and the agency (and NATCA) runs the other direction.

 

[32andBelow]

There are plenty of lvl 8-9 ERRs, you don’t seem very familiar with lvl 5-7 up downs cuz they definitely have it way worse. Merely explained that CTIs don’t have relevant experience for 8s for the sake of the thread.

And read what I said again, I said prior exp new hires shouldn’t get offered 8s, never did I discriminate against whether they’re CTI or .mil.

Your facility is an anomaly amongst level 8s. Now you know how just about all lvl 5-7 controllers feel.

We’ve all been saying that for years and it’s never gonna happen. Somebody points out what makes sense and the agency (and NATCA) runs the other direction.

Idk how they got all you tower guys complaining about levels with center just gets sent to 12s or straight to n90. They really got you fighting some fake war of ability preventing you from transferring ever

 

[SquawkHijack]

Idk how they got all you tower guys complaining about levels with center just gets sent to 12s or straight to n90. They really got you fighting some fake war of ability preventing you from transferring ever

Centers get fucked bad too, no arguments there. But it’s pretty much just as bad with lvl 5-7 up downs. It’s no fake war, hell it’s really no war at all. It boils down to those that understand how the lower level facilities are mostly undesirable and have very little potential of releasing and those that only believe in casting a pity-party for the centers all the time. I’m with you in saying that no one should be stuck at any facility as long as we’re seeing. But to say that people get released decently well from lower level up/downs is simply not true. I have a good friend that’s been stuck at a lvl 6 for going on 9 years now and hasn’t put in for super desirable (or hard to get to) places. It’s not just the Zs that are busted man, I feel your pain there, but yeah.

 

[32andBelow]

Centers get fucked bad too, no arguments there. But it’s pretty much just as bad with lvl 5-7 up downs. It’s no fake war, hell it’s really no war at all. It boils down to those that understand how the lower level facilities are mostly undesirable and have very little potential of releasing and those that only believe in only casting a pity-party for the centers all the time. I’m with you in saying that no one should be stuck at any facility as long as we’re seeing. But to say that people get released decently well from lower level facs is simply not true. I have a good friend that’s been stuck at a lvl 6 for going on 9 years now and hasn’t put in for super desirable (or hard to get to) places. It’s not just the Zs that are busted man, I feel your pain there, but yeah.

I’m just saying this fake war or saying new hires can’t go to an 8 or a 9 or a 12 even. All facilities need a healthy mix of new hires cpcs and transfers. You will never full staff an 8 or a 9 on transfers alone. Never ever.

 

[SquawkHijack]

I’m just saying this fake war or saying new hires can’t go to an 8 or a 9 or a 12 even. All facilities need a healthy mix of new hires cpcs and transfers. You will never full staff an 8 or a 9 on transfers alone. Never ever.

We would if we’d quit offering 8s to priors and actually staff our lower level facilities. Let your current CPCs at low levels move up and quit handing out country clubs to new hires. That’s the only way we’re gonna solve this problem. Trying to reinvent the wheel 10 different ways like the agency is doing isn’t helping anything.

And giving priors a 9-12 is just a bad idea anyway. 99/100 times they don’t have the experience with live traffic to have a reasonable chance at success. Sending someone to run sims at RTF & TSEW is not a training guarantee, that takes some level of live traffic experience as well. All in all. That’s a bad idea. Transfers alone may never cut it for 8-9 staffing, but what good is your point if a bunch of priors wash out anyway?

 

[32andBelow]

We would if we’d quit offering 8s to priors and actually staff our lower level facilities. Let your current CPCs at low levels move up and quit handing out country clubs to new hires. That’s the only way we’re gonna solve this problem. Trying to reinvent the wheel 10 different ways like the agency is doing isn’t helping anything.

And giving priors a 9-12 is just a bad idea anyway. 99/100 times they don’t have the experience with live traffic to have a reasonable chance at success. Sending someone to run sims at RTF & TSEW is not a training guarantee, that takes some level of live traffic experience as well. All in all. That’s a bad idea. Transfers alone may never cut it for 8-9 staffing, but what good is your point if a bunch of priors wash out anyway?

No you need new hires everywhere. 9 and below if not 12 and below. If a 9 is a 10 below numbers you really expect 10 people to transfer there before 1 person can leave? It will never happen

 

[SquawkHijack]

No you need new hires everywhere. 9 and below if not 12 and below. If a 9 is a 10 below numbers you really expect 10 people to transfer there before 1 person can leave? It will never happen

My guy, you do realize the sheer amount of people who are yearning to leave lower level facilities right? Plus, is the hypothetical you just mentioned not every 9-12 facility right now anyway? I’m just saying, there’s a reason the agency doesn’t send new hires to those facilities. They don’t possess the experience within the agency for a reasonable shot at success. I’m not talking about en route, and frankly can’t and won’t speak for it in that regard. But new hires have no business showing up to train at a 9-12 terminal facility unless they’re a reinstatement. It’s been that way for decades and that won’t change anytime soon.

We need to keep the hiring train rolling and staff our facilities from the lowest levels up since it’s those that are most undesireable, whilst offering geographically attractive locations. That’s the only way this problem will get solved. Letting new hires go to lvl 12’s and have 80% of them wash out because they were setup for failure isn’t going to do anything but waste potential.

 

[Ralph Capone]

if they renew the slate book I hope every staffing initiative completely fails. Bring on the OT, it’s the only way to build income vs cost of living now.

You should just resign.

 

[32andBelow]

My guy, you do realize the sheer amount of people who are yearning to leave lower level facilities right? Plus, is the hypothetical you just mentioned not every 9-12 facility right now anyway? I’m just saying, there’s a reason the agency doesn’t send new hires to those facilities. They don’t possess the experience within the agency for a reasonable shot at success. I’m not talking about en route, and frankly can’t and won’t speak for it in that regard. But new hires have no business showing up to train at a 9-12 terminal facility unless they’re a reinstatement. It’s been that way for decades and that won’t change anytime soon.

We need to keep the hiring train rolling and staff our facilities from the lowest levels up since it’s those that are most undesireable, whilst offering geographically attractive locations. That’s the only way this problem will get solved. Letting new hires go to lvl 12’s and have 80% of them wash out because they were setup for failure isn’t going to do anything but waste potential.

You guys act like the en route training departments are like going to Harvard. You run some sub par labs then you just go work.

 

[SquawkHijack]

You guys act like the en route training departments are like going to Harvard. You run some sub par labs then you just go work.

I just said I can’t and won’t speak for en route, fella. Why you putting words in people’s mouths?

And I believe that because those center training success rates are pretty sub par too lol.

Staffing is a two part process I.e. they actually have to certify as well, simply having people show up at facilities won’t solve the staffing problem.