FAA Academy Washout - Still Wanting to Pursue Career in ATC

[32andBelow]

They shouldn’t. But I suspect the faa higher ups don’t want to let people who may have washed out once another chance. Natca won’t ever say no to daddy faa and so they stand by and let the FSS people get fucked over and raise their hands in defeat and say well we can’t really do anything.

Natca is Schrodinger’s union - they simultaneously have a seat at the table and a say in how things are run but at the same time can’t use all their initial influence to get the anything done.

There’s plenty of people in FSS that were direct hire. And some of the FSS are plenty busy.

 

[Bandit117]

There’s plenty of people in FSS that were direct hire. And some of the FSS are plenty busy.

I don’t disagree. I also do recall, around 2017-18ish, a lot of people being offered only FSS out of the nest.

They used to publish the nest results, just like ncept. It would show where the person was at in training and what facility they were washed out of, the TRBs recommendation, what was offered, and what was accepted.

but transparency is the enemy apparently and now it’s all ultra double secret and not published. I have to imagine it’s because people found out that some people were being retained or offered more chances at different facilities where in other regions they would only be offered FSS or not retained, despite all other factors being equal. Rather than fix the problem, of course management seeks to cover it up

There’s plenty of people in FSS that were direct hire. And some of the FSS are plenty busy.

To add on to it, I remember reps telling washouts who were only offered FSS that they could go to FSS, certify, and ncept back into ATC, bc it was still 2152.

It turned out to be a lie, but they didn’t know that at the time. I remember hearing that “they are figuring out the details but you’ll definitely be able to come back”

 

[Gauff]

They shouldn’t. But I suspect the faa higher ups don’t want to let people who may have washed out once another chance. Natca won’t ever say no to daddy faa and so they stand by and let the FSS people get fucked over and raise their hands in defeat and say well we can’t really do anything.

Natca is Schrodinger’s union - they simultaneously have a seat at the table and a say in how things are run but at the same time can’t use any of their influence to get anything done.

Thing is the FAA will continue to hire previous academy or facility wash outs again on OTS and Prior Experience bids. They always have that line in the bids that says "previous academy or facility failures MAY not be accepted" but as of rn they have been hiring previous failures.

So it really seems like people that took the FSS bid to try to stay 2153 really got screwed over

 

[SquawkHijack]

To add on to it, I remember reps telling washouts who were only offered FSS that they could go to FSS, certify, and ncept back into ATC, bc it was still 2152.

It turned out to be a lie, but they didn’t know that at the time. I remember hearing that “they are figuring out the details but you’ll definitely be able to come back”

Not that this is an indictment on your belief of it, but I’d honestly love to see where/how NATCA didn’t know that washouts sent to FSS would be able to come back to ATC was a lie. After the crack deals we see them entertain with the agency, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were fully aware it was a lie and screwed people out of a career anyway. All because it was the path of least resistance at the time.

 

[Bandit117]

Not that this is an indictment on your belief of it, but I’d honestly love to see where/how NATCA didn’t know that washouts sent to FSS would be able to come back to ATC was a lie. After the crack deals we see them entertain with the agency, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were fully aware it was a lie and screwed people out of a career anyway. All because it was the path of least resistance at the time.

As I recall, this was all new. Ncept was still new, washouts getting offered AK flight service in large numbers was new. It makes sense people believed it, on paper 2152 is 2152. The unofficial word was they didn’t have the exact details of how you could go from one to the other, but that it was being negotiated and that FSS was going be looped into ncept and that was going to be the means. That FSS could submit err packages like any other 2152, and the selection/release criteria was being worked on.

Keep in mind this was like 2016/17, the big group of hires in 15-16 was now through the system to the point where they had certified or washed, and there were a lot who washed. NEST panels were usually pretty lengthy. There was still good hiring still going on as well and the academy pumping classes and so low lower level towers were often decently full up. If you were recommended a 4 tower there might only be a couple in the whole country that had open slots. The fss option was kind of the “we don’t want to street this person but we don’t have a spot we can justify sending them either” punt

 

[SquawkHijack]

As I recall, this was all new. Ncept was still new, washouts getting offered AK flight service in large numbers was new. It makes sense people believed it, on paper 2152 is 2152. The unofficial word was they didn’t have the exact details of how you could go from one to the other, but that it was being negotiated and that FSS was going be looped into ncept and that was going to be the means. That FSS could submit err packages like any other 2152, and the selection/release criteria was being worked on.

Keep in mind this was like 2016/17, the big group of hires in 15-16 was now through the system to the point where they had certified or washed, and there were a lot who washed. NEST panels were usually pretty lengthy. There was still good hiring still going on as well and the academy pumping classes and so low lower level towers were often decently full up. If you were recommended a 4 tower there might only be a couple in the whole country that had open slots. The fss option was kind of the “we don’t want to street this person but we don’t have a spot we can justify sending them either” punt

That makes sense, but at the same time I can see this being NATCA getting baited with that by the FAA. My reasoning being you can’t ERR to a TMU, why would they do the same for FSS? I can definitely see what what you’re saying, but it just seems odd that this truly had potential.

 

[Bandit117]

That makes sense, but at the same time I can see this being NATCA getting baited with that by the FAA. My reasoning being you can’t ERR to a TMU, why would they do the same for FSS? I can definitely see what what you’re saying, but it just seems odd that this truly had potential.

My assumption is that at one time there was a legitimate effort to loop in the FSS into ncept, and when the faa pushed back natca gave up and threw them under the bus knowing the bulk of the membership wouldn’t care. They were not about to make waves over that.

They won’t fight for Zs to get overdue pay raises, you think they give a shit about Alaska FSS?

 

[KP-ATC]

That makes sense, but at the same time I can see this being NATCA getting baited with that by the FAA. My reasoning being you can’t ERR to a TMU, why would they do the same for FSS? I can definitely see what what you’re saying, but it just seems odd that this truly had potential.

Why not? You can apparently ERR to a staff job.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

That makes sense, but at the same time I can see this being NATCA getting baited with that by the FAA. My reasoning being you can’t ERR to a TMU, why would they do the same for FSS? I can definitely see what what you’re saying, but it just seems odd that this truly had potential.

My facility is trying to pick our new TMU via ERR.... I think it sounds super sketchy but nobody is listening to me

 

[Mike Kilo]

My facility is trying to pick our new TMU via ERR.... I think it sounds super sketchy but nobody is listening to me

I tried to ERR to TMU and was told that’s not allowed lol. Let us know how it goes!

 

[Phillytroll69]

That makes sense, but at the same time I can see this being NATCA getting baited with that by the FAA. My reasoning being you can’t ERR to a TMU, why would they do the same for FSS? I can definitely see what what you’re saying, but it just seems odd that this truly had potential.

You can ERR to ANY position in the nas. You could file one for ATM....I mean good luck. Cpc would qualify for tmu/flm at similar facility. I assume you could get to Fairbanks FSS

 

[32andBelow]

You can ERR to ANY position in the nas. You could file one for ATM....I mean good luck. Cpc would qualify for tmu/flm at similar facility. I assume you could get to Fairbanks FSS

some management have bounced between enroute and FSS and back.

 

[Phillytroll69]

some management have bounced between enroute and FSS and back.

They aren't tied to ncept 🙁 so a but more flexible to get the experience with a route back in....union win i guess

 

[SquawkHijack]

You can ERR to ANY position in the nas. You could file one for ATM....I mean good luck. Cpc would qualify for tmu/flm at similar facility. I assume you could get to Fairbanks FSS

That may very well be true for FSS. But I have been sure-shot told that you cannot request ERR for the command center as they are Sys Ops and do not fall under the ATO, even though they are also 2152s. That is open to bids only.

I’ve also never heard of a CPC ever ERRing to a TMU. You could very well be right, but I feel like you may only be able to USAJobs your way to a TMU.

some management have bounced between enroute and FSS and back.

What about a TMU? I’ve never heard of anyone doing that via NCEPT.

 

[32andBelow]

What about a TMU? I’ve never heard of anyone doing that via NCEPT.

An ERR doesn’t mean NCEPT. It’s just a transfer

 

[Phillytroll69]

That may very well be true for FSS. But I have been sure-shot told that you cannot request ERR for the command center as they are Sys Ops and do not fall under the ATO, even though they are also 2152s. That is open to bids only.

I’ve also never heard of a CPC ever ERRing to a TMU. You could very well be right, but I feel like you may only be able to USAJobs your way to a TMU.

My understanding is you can employee request relocation to ANYTHING....but outside of ato makes sense.....since that's a new job

 

[32andBelow]

There’s a weird thing with the academy instructors/evaluators where they move out of the ATO. That’s why they can always go

 

[ManBearPig]

An ERR doesn’t mean NCEPT. It’s just a transfer

NCEPT = National Centralized ERR Process Team.................

My understanding is you can employee request relocation to ANYTHING....but outside of ato makes sense.....since that's a new job

Yeah you can put in an ERR to anywhere or anything. OSs put in for them all the time, and the ATMs can just pull a ERR if they need to pick someone up. My understanding is that in theory you could put an ERR in for a TMU, and have an ATM select you. But you would still be help accountable to the National Release Policy. The reality is they are just putting bids out for those positions and selecting from that pool.

 

[32andBelow]

NCEPT = National Centralized ERR Process Team.................

Yah but like if you go from your own facility to TMU it’s not NCEPT

 

[J-one-s]

I feel like the moment they open the door a lot of people in fss would be going to ATC. A lot of them are in fss bc they washed from atc, no? With that in mind I can’t see the natca pushing to give people more chances.

I can only speak for my facility(which is one of the "bigger" ones)... the majority is not washouts. FSS took washouts regularly for a few years, but it doesn't happen much anymore.