Hold over/9 HR rule/shift change

[+TSRA]

Howdy Gang:

Not sure where else to ask this. I was given hold OT. Due to the 9 HR rule, management changed my shift the following day. They said they “weren’t” changing the shift, the 9 hour rule made them. They did not ask me.

Unless I agreed to change shift the following day, I believe I am ineligible for the OT. Am I wrong?

Thanks.

 

[FredSmoot]

Howdy Gang:

Not sure where else to ask this. I was given hold OT. Due to the 9 HR rule, management changed my shift the following day. They said they “weren’t” changing the shift, the 9 hour rule made them. They did not ask me.

Unless I agreed to change shift the following day, I believe I am ineligible for the OT. Am I wrong?

Thanks.

They should give you Admin Leave until you’re eligible to work on your current schedule.

 

[Soul_Controller]

The shift change was illegal. Should have moved you then gave you excused absence on the backside if they really wanted to give you the OT.

If your question is whether or not they can assign the OT, the answer is yes. They just open themselves up to grievances on the next shift.

 

[Redacted]

Regarding the admin leave, where is that in the contract to hold them to?

 

[Soul_Controller]

Regarding the admin leave, where is that in the contract to hold them to?

Nothing that I know of. It just makes them look a lot more reasonable in the grievance process. They fucked up but they mitigated it. Moving the shift is illegal. Even excused absence on the front can be argued as illegal because of the shift start time. But you look extra petty trying to argue the harm to your member for working a 7 hour day.

 

[+TSRA]

Thanks. You guys confirmed my belief.

 

[32andBelow]

Regarding the admin leave, where is that in the contract to hold them to?

The way our antiquated system works admin wouldn’t rectify the 9 hour thing.

 

[GroundClutter]

Wait hold the hell on.

How have I never heard or thought of this angle.

Now my rep and local won't back me up on it I have a feeling. I normally just burn credit on the back side.

Management can't force a shift change within 7 days, am I doing this right?

 

[Somenewguy]

Paid leave is still a part of your shift and violates rest requirements for air traffic duties.
7210.3 2-6-7b12.

You were/are ineligible to work OT. Your union rep should be able to "educate" your management on the last minute shift change.

 

[+TSRA]

Wait hold the hell on.

How have I never heard or thought of this angle.

Now my rep and local won't back me up on it I have a feeling. I normally just burn credit on the back side.

Management can't force a shift change within 7 days, am I doing this right?

Correct. It’s in the contract. The language is pretty clear so there isn’t much room for interpretation.

 

[Soul_Controller]

It's at least two grievances to me. Shift change in seven days, a work assignment that violated the fatigue MOU. You'll probably lose the latter, but article 8ing it first will provide some amusing ammunition.

And just for shits and giggles, a union grievance for not soliciting volunteers for the shift you left or the shift they put you on

 

[Phillytroll69]

So here's one for you
Management forces ot.
You refuse to change next day (can't do atc duties)
They aren't supposed to change shift next day.
Come in at your normal time you just cant do air traffic duties...do elms?
I think this is the best solution

 

[32andBelow]

So here's one for you
Management forces ot.
You refuse to change next day (can't do atc duties)
They aren't supposed to change shift next day.
Come in at your normal time you just cant do air traffic duties...do elms?
I think this is the best solution

Yah 8 hours of other duties is the only way. But I don’t think it even lets them assign the hour of OT if it’s illegal.

 

[+TSRA]

So here's one for you
Management forces ot.
You refuse to change next day (can't do atc duties)
They aren't supposed to change shift next day.
Come in at your normal time you just cant do air traffic duties...do elms?
I think this is the best solution

No. My reading of it, you can’t do anything. You need 9 hours period.

 

[Phillytroll69]

While they could not give you admin for an hour or two a non ooerational admin shift is not covered.

For instance you get in an accident on a Sunday night and go to er. You take sick leave from x until midnight. You could get all the paperwork that night done to be on admin schedule/duties.

If you aren't a controller that day and want to do it I don't think it would be a problem

 

[Somenewguy]

The basic watch rules start with this:
"Air traffic control specialists whose primary duties are those directly related to the control and separation
of aircraft must meet the following criteria:"

So you can definitely do non air traffic duties after a 10 hour shift, or without the appropriate rest between shifts. It happens often when controllers are asked to hold over after an incident for drug testing. You don't just get to leave after 10 hours even though you can't work traffic.

 

[Phillytroll69]

The basic watch rules start with this:
"Air traffic control specialists whose primary duties are those directly related to the control and separation
of aircraft must meet the following criteria:"

So you can definitely do non air traffic duties after a 10 hour shift, or without the appropriate rest between shifts. It happens often when controllers are asked to hold over after an incident for drug testing. You don't just get to leave after 10 hours even though you can't work traffic.

Ah yes I have peed in a cup. I'll have to keep this in mind if it's ever on a turn lol. Show up at my regular time and say I can't do air traffic duties

 

[Gauff]

No. My reading of it, you can’t do anything. You need 9 hours period.

That's how I understand it too. The minute your shift starts even if it's non operational is counted towards your duty time. After your time is up (if you're in the military) they can hold you for non operational duties that wouldn't prohibit a shift starting within your duty window. Idk if that's just the military side of things or not though 🤷‍♂️

While they could not give you admin for an hour or two a non operational admin shift is not covered.

For instance you get in an accident on a Sunday night and go to er. You take sick leave from x until midnight. You could get all the paperwork that night done to be on admin schedule/duties.

If you aren't a controller that day and want to do it I don't think it would be a problem

That's how I see it as well, but that's a pretty specific case of someone not on any specific atc type duties. Admin leave wouldn't qualify like sick leave in my opinion

 

[Termine]

They should give you Admin Leave until you’re eligible to work on your current schedule.

Should have moved you then gave you excused absence on the backside if they really wanted to give you the OT.

Hm... This is from the 7210.3: "Authorized leave, compensatory time used, and credit hours used are considered hours of work." Is "excused absence" the same as "authorized leave"?

Regardless, from earlier up the list: "Have at least an 8-hour break from the time work ends to the start of any shift, except [9 hours before day shift]." Combine that "Hours worked before a shift, whether operational or not, will count as operational hours" and the way I see it, if you don't have the 8/9 hours then you're non-operational for that entire next shift. Only way they can get around it is changing your shift.

Now as for changing the shift, where does it actually say they can't do that? Here's the Slate Book article 32 section 6:

The Parties recognize that changing an employee's posted watch schedule is undesirable. The Agency will normally give no less than seven (7) days notice of its intention to modify a posted watch schedule. In such case, it shall attempt to avoid the change by soliciting qualified volunteers for forty-eight (48 ) hours. If the Agency determines it is necessary to modify a posted watch schedule with less than seven (7) days notice, it will make reasonable efforts to secure qualified volunteers. Changes with less than seven (7) days notice shall not be made for the purpose of avoiding payment of overtime, holiday, or other premium pay. If an employee's shift is involuntarily changed with less than seven (7) days notice, the affected employee shall be paid any night time differentials to which he/she would otherwise have been entitled, had they worked that shift.

It doesn't say the agency can't change your shift inside of 7 days, it says that if they do they have to give you nighttime diff as if you had worked the original shift. You could possibly grieve the volunteer solicitation process but I'm not seeing how you can grieve the change itself, unless there's precedent for that.

 

[Soul_Controller]

You could possibly grieve the volunteer solicitation process but I'm not seeing how you can grieve the change itself, unless there's precedent for that

You article 8 it first and hear whatever reason they have for forcing a schedule change/assigning the OT to get the ammunition for your grievance. It's always tough to grieve the "not normally" ones, but you still have to do it, otherwise they just get more and more brainless with it.