*Insert Clickbait Thread Title Name Regarding Unions Here*

[Logical_Mongoose]

Well a driver making $40 that gets a $2.75 raise is a 5-6% raise….not 40%…..

Bruh, your math is all over the place.

~40% was the $7.50 compared to the median wage of $19.

The immediate $2.75 raise is a ~15% raise to the median wage of $19.

You're close with part of your assumption: $2.75 is a ~7% raise for those at $40 an hour; the $7.50 raise is ~19% for someone making $40 an hour which is close to a 4% yearly raise.

A lot of those percentages go out the window though since all the part-timers who make ~$16 an hour will immediately get raises to $21 an hour.

More importantly, they bargained to raise the floor for their wages which will be beneficial for all of their BUEs in the long run. Some part-time new hire at a BFE distribution facility going from $16 an hour to $21 an hour is a massive victory. Forcing UPS to add 30k full-time positions means many part-time workers get to transition to full-time status with better benefits and pay, also a massive victory. Mandatory OT is gone for them, multiple tier wages are gone, and gradual implementation of A/C for the drivers.




I'm sure it wasn't their wet dream fantasy contract, but it is an absolute win for a major workforce.

Federal employees have averaged a 1.6% pay raise per year (not including locality or contract/performance raises) over the last 16 years. I'm not saying it is NATCA's responsibility to correct the pay of all federal employees, but I am saying it is their responsibility to use that information as well as information gained from the new UPS contract and general macroeconomic trend awareness to maybe do a little better than renewing the old contract.

 

[TangoBearFox]

Bruh, your math is all over the place.

~40% was the $7.50 compared to the median wage of $19.

The immediate $2.75 raise is a ~15% raise to the median wage of $19.

You're close with part of your assumption: $2.75 is a ~7% raise for those at $40 an hour; the $7.50 raise is ~19% for someone making $40 an hour which is close to a 4% yearly raise.

A lot of those percentages go out the window though since all the part-timers who make ~$16 an hour will immediately get raises to $21 an hour.

More importantly, they bargained to raise the floor for their wages which will be beneficial for all of their BUEs in the long run. Some part-time new hire at a BFE distribution facility going from $16 an hour to $21 an hour is a massive victory. Forcing UPS to add 30k full-time positions means many part-time workers get to transition to full-time status with better benefits and pay, also a massive victory. Mandatory OT is gone for them, multiple tier wages are gone, and gradual implementation of A/C for the drivers.


View attachment 8639

I'm sure it wasn't their wet dream fantasy contract, but it is an absolute win for a major workforce.

Federal employees have averaged a 1.6% pay raise per year (not including locality or contract/performance raises) over the last 16 years. I'm not saying it is NATCA's responsibility to correct the pay of all federal employees, but I am saying it is their responsibility to use that information as well as information gained from the new UPS contract and general macroeconomic trend awareness to maybe do a little better than renewing the old contract.

That's what's so frustrating, they didn't even try for a new contract.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Every other professional job requires a degree. And even then what do you think the average salary of a person is. Because if you’re making more than 100k you’re in like the the top 15% of earners lmao

One could argue degrees aren’t necessary for a vast majority of jobs but it’s big education lobbying for the requirements. We just happen to be in a profession where your employer miraculously offers to pay for your training.

What does a required art history course have to do with accounting? Practically every profession could get away with OJT as opposed to a 4 year degree. This doesn’t even account for the fact that you can literally learn anything on the internet. There are regular civilians out there who have represented themselves in court and won.

Lastly, how many controllers-as-a-profession fly vs how many pilots-as-a-profession control?

 

[TangoBearFox]

One could argue degrees aren’t necessary for a vast majority of jobs but it’s big education lobbying for the requirements. We just happen to be in a profession where your employer miraculously offers to pay for your training.

What does a required art history course have to do with accounting? Practically every profession could get away with OJT as opposed to a 4 year degree. This doesn’t even account for the fact that you can literally learn anything on the internet. There are regular civilians out there who have represented themselves in court and won.

Lastly, how many controllers-as-a-profession fly vs how many pilots-as-a-profession control?

Agreed, now we have a student debt crises because most of these degrees are straight up scams that their careers will never provide enough money to pay back the debt. It's a crime on the youth of our nation that continues to saddle them down with un-escapable debt.

 

[AB19]

Do you think a degree is the be all to end all in pay? Look at our numbers, scarcity commands higher wages. Less controllers, more planes, more money. The amount of time it takes to train, the fact the we are one of the only places in the federal government that can fire people and do regularly. There are 11,000 FAA CPC controllers in the US. There are city police and firefighters that don't have degrees and make more and their pension is better, it's not apples to apples but using your example as no degree required.

No no I don’t disagree about wanting more pay and better benefits I just meant that this job is definitely something I’d recommend to do. I recommend this job to anyone

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

I have friends in the trades who would strike if their company changed to 1-ply toilet paper. As far as striking goes, I think we carry a lot more weight than in the 80s, nowadays. We’re talking 800m passengers in 1980 vs 4.6b in 2020. It’s an under represented fact but it would be a threat to national security if we went on a strike today. I feel like that’s a pretty decent bargaining chip. It’s irritating when my RVP threatens us by saying “sure, but remember last time y’all went on strike?”

Not arguing for or against, but different playing fields nonetheless.

If NATCA really wanted to flex, all they would have to do is what police call "blue flu" and similar to what happened at the end of the shutdown.

Of course it couldn't be overtly orchestrated by NATCA and people would of course be genuinely ill.

But if just the right amount of people banged in sick at N90 on Monday, PCT on Tuesday, ZDC on Wednesday, ZNY on Thursday, and maybe IAD on Friday, then NATCA could spend the weekend saying "we have been talking about staffing levels and pay for years, we sure hope our burnt out controllers don't continue to get sick in the middle of their 60 hour work weeks." I would imagine Congress and the executive office would get the point pretty fucking quick as representatives try to Amtrak their asses home from their session.

But who the hell am I? Mick says I'm not even invited on chow runs anymore.

 

[AB19]

One could argue degrees aren’t necessary for a vast majority of jobs but it’s big education lobbying for the requirements. We just happen to be in a profession where your employer miraculously offers to pay for your training.

What does a required art history course have to do with accounting? Practically every profession could get away with OJT as opposed to a 4 year degree. This doesn’t even account for the fact that you can literally learn anything on the internet. There are regular civilians out there who have represented themselves in court and won.

Lastly, how many controllers-as-a-profession fly vs how many pilots-as-a-profession control?

Degrees are necessary to the employers doing the hiring though, not that they should be. I’m not saying that controllers don’t deserve more it was more into counter argument of not recommending it to other people

 

[Phillytroll69]

Idk, union is too focused on changing gender neutral words in the constitution to do anything about that. Its criminal they didn't try to negotiate a new contract. That's where I want my dues to go to, lawyers to negotiate a better contract.
I've said it once and say it again I would never encourage my kids to do this job unless something drastic changes, the juice ain't worth the squeeze anymore. Every other professional job has caught up and in most cases surpassed pay especially at 10 and belows, and with downgrades being a backdoor pay cut for most of the NAS, what the fuck is our union doing!?

That's the thing. The federal government is doing a ton for inclusivity and stuff...like the faa seems to be doing a decent job. I don't know where to find the information if it is just a democratic government implementing it or a union win.

 

[TangoBearFox]

Degrees are necessary to the employers doing the hiring though, not that they should be. I’m not saying that controllers don’t deserve more it was more into counter argument of not recommending it to other people

Someone on the job once brought up the fact they would only recommend this job as a something you do as a second option. I tend to agree, as a first recommendation this wouldn't be it. When you explain to someone the shift, (the rattler, not getting weekends off, bidding leave a year in advance) people tend to think twice. That's part of the reason why we need to command higher wages, this job will kill you. I've known 3 people who have died shortly after retirement.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Degrees are necessary to the employers doing the hiring though, not that they should be. I’m not saying that controllers don’t deserve more it was more into counter argument of not recommending it to other people

Right but it’s an arbitrary requirement is what I’m saying. Would the FAA and the flying public stand to benefit from having controllers who have degrees and studied things like astrophysics, aerodynamics, learn things like real life aircraft characteristics and performance. Take full on courses in meteorology? Obviously that’s a resounding yes. Is a college degree required for ATC? No. Do we still get the minimum required training to be trusted to control aircraft? Yes.

I don’t think we’re necessarily disagreeing with each other btw lol like you said, making a point for both sides of the coin.

If NATCA really wanted to flex, all they would have to do is what police call "blue flu" and similar to what happened at the end of the shutdown.

Of course it couldn't be overtly orchestrated by NATCA and people would of course be genuinely ill.

But if just the right amount of people banged in sick at N90 on Monday, PCT on Tuesday, ZDC on Wednesday, ZNY on Thursday, and maybe IAD on Friday, then NATCA could spend the weekend saying "we have been talking about staffing levels and pay for years, we sure hope our burnt out controllers don't continue to get sick in the middle of their 60 hour work weeks." I would imagine Congress and the executive office would get the point pretty fucking quick as representatives try to Amtrak their asses home from their session.

But who the hell am I? Mick says I'm not even invited on chow runs anymore.

Maybe I was in some sort of twilight zone but didn’t this happen a few years ago when the gov shut down? Bunch of “sick calls” in the NE from controllers and a resolution was passed virtually same day?

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

Maybe I was in some sort of twilight zone but didn’t this happen a few years ago when the gov shut down? Bunch of “sick calls” in the NE from controllers and a resolution was passed virtually same day?

Read the end of my first sentence.

 

[TangoBearFox]

That's the thing. The federal government is doing a ton for inclusivity and stuff...like the faa seems to be doing a decent job. I don't know where to find the information if it is just a democratic government implementing it or a union win.

That's cool I would like them to inclusive me into some more money. That's all I care about, I pay NATCA my money every two weeks and when the opportunity to negotiate me more money by a new contract comes up and you don't even try, what the hell am I suppose to think?

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

That's cool I would like them to inclusive me into some more money. That's all I care about, I pay NATCA my money every two weeks and when the opportunity to negotiate me more money by a new contract comes up and you don't even try, what the hell am I suppose to think?

Ya know… you made an intriguing point maybe even incidentally. By increasing our pay, you’re increasing baseline membership fees. The union stands to do nothing but benefit for it. Not even considering an all time high membership satisfaction.

 

[TangoBearFox]

Ya know… you made an intriguing point maybe even incidentally. By increasing our pay, you’re increasing baseline membership fees. The union stands to do nothing but benefit for it. Not even considering an all time high membership satisfaction.

The whole thing is mind boggling incompetence by National. Someone most be on the take at the top for political favors because it's one of the two.

 

[32andBelow]

Ya know… you made an intriguing point maybe even incidentally. By increasing our pay, you’re increasing baseline membership fees. The union stands to do nothing but benefit for it. Not even considering an all time high membership satisfaction.

That’s what makes natca so incompetent. They do nothing to help people get certified faster which would result in them making more money

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

That’s what makes natca so incompetent. They do nothing to help people get certified faster which would result in them making more money

Gotta put it into terms they can understand

 

[32andBelow]

View attachment 8640
Gotta put it into terms they can understand

Yah forgot Hawaii their last meeting was in Miami!

 

[TangoBearFox]

Yah forgot Hawaii their last meeting was in Miami!

And no one would give two French hens about their "meetings " if they were good at their jobs. All this smoke they deserve for doing bad.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

The last 60 years have not been kind to unions in the US, and most of those in leadership roles in unions have been blind or complicit with their own downfall.

After the Hoffa-era of union's political involvement coupled hand in hand with the organized... threat of physical enforcement... of their political power, most unions thought they could still get by with political prowess/back-slapping with those in power.

Roughly 25 years (70's into 90's) of vainly trying to be "in the room where it happens" based off of their earlier cachet until the 1990s when overt political fundraising skyrockets, and then they think they can buy a seat at the table and an invitation to the backroom like all the other corporations/industries into the policy-making process. So again, thinking they can out-shark the sharks while getting kicked in the teeth and skimming off the top of their dues paying members.

It seems pretty obvious that we're (thankfully) beginning to see a shift with some of the larger unions over the last few years (UAW with electing Shawn Fain and Teamsters with electing Sean O'Brien) getting back to more populist principles of labor organization with the "threat" of exercising their true power via strikes and slow-downs. NATCA leadership still seems complacent with skimming off the top while their "union" members wither on the vine.

 

[AB19]

The last 60 years have not been kind to unions in the US, and most of those in leadership roles in unions have been blind or complicit with their own downfall.

After the Hoffa-era of union's political involvement coupled hand in hand with the organized... threat of physical enforcement... of their political power, most unions thought they could still get by with political prowess/back-slapping with those in power.

Roughly 25 years (70's into 90's) of vainly trying to be "in the room where it happens" based off of their earlier cachet until the 1990s when overt political fundraising skyrockets, and then they think they can buy a seat at the table and an invitation to the backroom like all the other corporations/industries into the policy-making process. So again, thinking they can out-shark the sharks while getting kicked in the teeth and skimming off the top of their dues paying members.

It seems pretty obvious that we're (thankfully) beginning to see a shift with some of the larger unions over the last few years (UAW with electing Shawn Fain and Teamsters with electing Sean O'Brien) getting back to more populist principles of labor organization with the "threat" of exercising their true power via strikes and slow-downs. NATCA leadership still seems complacent with skimming off the top while their "union" members wither on the vine.

The only power labor has is withholding it. The destruction of workers rights by both liberals and conservatives in the country is disgusting. But this is what capitalists wanted, so they got it.