Issuing an initial heading to be flown off sats (En Route)

[corn4ahead]

So I have been a terminal controller for years at multiple facilities. Now, I am training at a Z. One of my lows owns to the ground and I am being told that we cannot issue headings off satellite airports when issuing a release.

All day, everyday my clearances off sats were "N12345, RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE, ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE, FLY HEADING (XXX), CLEARANCE VOID IF NOT OFF BY XXXX"

I have been told I cannot issue the heading because I am issuing a heading below the MIA. I call BS but the only other response I get is "this isn't approach anymore."" We have different rules and the center."

Thoughts?

 

[rhombus]

You still get assign it if there’s no surface area so you can use their information to set up a rule or anything like that. But there are airports with single runway ODPs so it’s a bit of a loophole

I mean ultimately it’s the pilot’s decision what runway they depart from at an uncontrolled airport. When we have a preferred runway we just let them know the delay will be much longer from the other runway and they usually play ball. But it’s still the pilot’s choice

 

[32andBelow]

I mean ultimately it’s the pilot’s decision what runway they depart from at an uncontrolled airport. When we have a preferred runway we just let them know the delay will be much longer from the other runway and they usually play ball. But it’s still the pilot’s choice

No you literally can’t assign it. Once you release them they can go off either one. Unless you have an ODP that restricts them. We’re taking class G right? Class E you can assign it all day

 

[slater]

I've always done "N12345, say runway departing."

then

"Cleared to the xxx airport via entering controlled airspace heading xxx radar vectors xxx then as filed. On departure, climb and maintain xxx. Squak xxxx."

Then

"released for departure, report airborne, altimeter xxxx. Clearance void time"

Then protect non radar until you have radar contact. I'm tracon tho. If there is an ODP, that could be used instead, but became less popular recently.

 

[Raise when?]

i'll tell ya what i do, not saying it's right/wrong. and too lazy to hunt the .65

when entering controlled airspace, fly heading 270, then at the end of the clearance ill say verify this clearance complies with all terrain and obstruction avoidance procedures in the area. may be redundant, but it's just what ive always done

 

[rhombus]

No you literally can’t assign it. Once you release them they can go off either one. Unless you have an ODP that restricts them. We’re taking class G right? Class E you can assign it all day

Nah I thought we were talking class E. And you definitely can’t assign a runway for departure for any uncontrolled airport. The FAA doesn’t want that liability

 

[32andBelow]

Nah I thought we were talking class E. And you definitely can’t assign a runway for departure for any uncontrolled airport. The FAA doesn’t want that liability

yah for sure. The only way you really can is with an ODP. But we should call class e uncontrolled cus it’s not. It might be non towered

 

[rhombus]

yah for sure. The only way you really can is with an ODP. But we should call class e uncontrolled cus it’s not. It might be non towered

That’s my terminal bias speaking. I use those terms interchangeably when referring to the airport surface

 

[GroundClutter]

No you literally can’t assign it. Once you release them they can go off either one. Unless you have an ODP that restricts them. We’re taking class G right? Class E you can assign it all day

yah for sure. The only way you really can is with an ODP. But we should call class e uncontrolled cus it’s not. It might be non towered

I want to be sure here because you're saying different things multiple different ways.

At any airport that has no control tower or ATC facility on the field, you cannot assign a runway for departure. Regardless of the class of airspace. Class E airspace to the surface does not give you control to issue a runways assignment.

A field is uncontrolled if there's no tower regardless of the class of airspace.

 

[32andBelow]

I want to be sure here because you're saying different things multiple different ways.

At any airport that has no control tower or ATC facility on the field, you cannot assign a runway for departure. Regardless of the class of airspace. Class E airspace to the surface does not give you control to issue a runways assignment.

A field is uncontrolled if there's no tower regardless of the class of airspace.

No you can assign a runway and it is controlled if it’s class E. Center owns the surface area and can run special VFR. It’s controlled. Takeoff direction = runway assignment. I suppose If you can find somewhere with parallels it could be one of two but that wouldn’t mess up any of your non radar separation

(b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.

 

[GroundClutter]

I would disagree with you on both points, or at least play devil's advocate.

First of all I think a Class E airport is a controlled airport. Not controlled in the sense of "airport traffic control service" (although there are rare times/locations where you can have an operational control tower in a Class E surface area). But controlled in that an IFR aircraft must receive an ATC clearance prior to departing from that airport—something that is not necessary at a Class G airport.

My second argument hinges on that definition of "Class E airport" = "controlled airport." If you don't accept that, then you won't like where I'm going with this: What specifically says you can't assign a runway at a Class E airport? Nothing specifically says you can, I'll grant you that, but I don't think it's a huge liability issue and I don't think anyone would hold you accountable for runway separation. Just make sure not to say "cleared for takeoff." If the pilot doesn't like your assigned runway they can unable it, and if you wanted to be safe you could phrase it as an "are you able" instead of an instruction.

Fair enough. I'm getting hung up on issuing instructions on the ground as if I have control of a movement area. But that's not really the way to think of it and anything is possible through pilot concurrence.

No you can assign a runway and it is controlled if it’s class E. Center owns the surface area and can run special VFR. It’s controlled. Takeoff direction = runway assignment. I suppose If you can find somewhere with parallels it could be one of two but that wouldn’t mess up any of your non radar separation

(b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.

I need to reevaluate my thought process on this and you can assign the runway for departure in the clearance.

Thanks guys.

I honestly don't believe I'll ever run in to this to use it this way but it's good to know what's possible.

 

[rhombus]

No you can assign a runway and it is controlled if it’s class E. Center owns the surface area and can run special VFR. It’s controlled. Takeoff direction = runway assignment. I suppose If you can find somewhere with parallels it could be one of two but that wouldn’t mess up any of your non radar separation

(b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.

Obtaining/soliciting pilot’s concurrence is the important part. The pilot picks the runway for themselves and it’s up to you to give them a clearance/release off of that runway. If someone calls up and wants Runway 4 for departure and you assign them Runway 22 I’d say that’s breaking the rules

 

[GO]

Similar situation. Our center doesn’t allow that as well since our radar screens do not depict every obstacle or terrain in the area of the airport. For us it isn’t a huge thing so I didn’t press it but they have us give via whatever the first fix is on the route for the departure clearance. They are concerned about the #2 note so they put it back on the pilot by not giving a specific heading. They depart as needed and call up direct to whatever fix and climbing

Maybe here they would allow leaving whatever MIA/MVA altitude, fly heading… this would ensure that the pilot is responsible for the obstacles on departure/terrain and you get the heading you want. Just don’t need it that often here. This sat airports have no control tower or ODP either in my case.

5−8−2. INITIAL HEADING
a. Before departure ,assign the initial to be flown if a departing aircraft is to be vectored immediately after takeoff.
PHRASEOLOGY−
FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
TURN LEFT/RIGHT, HEADING (degrees).
NOTE−
1. TERMINAL. A purpose for the heading is not necessary, since pilots operating in a radar environment associate assigned headings with vectors to their planned route of flight.
2. ATC assumes responsibility for terrain and obstacle avoidance when IFR aircraft are below the minimum IFR altitude (MVA, MIA, MEA) and are taken off departure/ missed approach procedures, or are issued go−around instructions, except when utilizing a Diverse Vector Area (DVA) with an aircraft departing from the surface.

 

[Termine]

At any airport that has no control tower or ATC facility on the field, you cannot assign a runway for departure. Regardless of the class of airspace. Class E airspace to the surface does not give you control to issue a runways assignment.

A field is uncontrolled if there's no tower regardless of the class of airspace.

I would disagree with you on both points, or at least play devil's advocate.

First of all I think a Class E airport is a controlled airport. Not controlled in the sense of "airport traffic control service" (although there are rare times/locations where you can have an operational control tower in a Class E surface area). But controlled in that an IFR aircraft must receive an ATC clearance prior to departing from that airport—something that is not necessary at a Class G airport.

My second argument hinges on that definition of "Class E airport" = "controlled airport." If you don't accept that, then you won't like where I'm going with this: What specifically says you can't assign a runway at a Class E airport? Nothing specifically says you can, I'll grant you that, but I don't think it's a huge liability issue and I don't think anyone would hold you accountable for runway separation. Just make sure not to say "cleared for takeoff." If the pilot doesn't like your assigned runway they can unable it, and if you wanted to be safe you could phrase it as an "are you able" instead of an instruction.

 

[32andBelow]

Does the airport have an ODP? If there is nothing saying your heading is safe for terrain then you cannot issue it.