NCEPT debate thread

[Maintainvfr]

Do you believe the suggestions I made screw people in some way? If so, how? I agree there is no perfect system and someone will find something to complain about no matter what, but there are definitely improvements that can be made, which I'm sure we all would agree. I think the NCEPT can be a good system as long as they keep tweaking it for the better when they can. Obviously the biggest issue is lack of staffing across the board and that's just something we all have to deal with until it improves.

I think that most controllers trying to leave their facilities would agree with your suggestions. If the end goal is staffing the system though, then it doesn't make sense. If a new cert is willing to go to those facilities that someone with more experience might not be, then the FAA is going to prefer to staff the system than let someone else from his facility go somewhere that doesn't need a person as bad.

I know a counter point to this is that there could be someone with more time in from another facility trying to get there, but it's up to the receiving facility to rank them.

You think a brand new CPC is better than a "mediocre" controller? Who determines mediocrity, you? What does "whiny" mean? Is someone at a facility that hasn't been able to release a single controller since NCEPT was instituted, "whiny"? You plan to eliminate seniority in RDO and vacation bidding too?

I'm glad I got out of my first facility before this system was put into place. My coworkers at the old facility are still 2 years away from being able to even release one controller. That is grim and this dumb system is to blame for it.

Nobody has made these blanket statements that you got from the discussion above.... Nobody gets to decide. That's the point. Some new controllers are going to be better than controllers that have more than 6 months or a year in or whatever the proposed time would be. More importantly, as I said above, if these new hires are willing to go places the controllers with time in don't want to go, then that's what the FAA is going to want. Unfortunately that's not ideal for those people that want less desirable facilities, but the program is working as intended.

The vacation and RDO comment is irrelevant to the conversation, and maybe it's just because I tend to miss so much nuance on a message board, but this feels like you're just trying to discredit his opinion rather than address it.

As for the facility you left not being able to release for years, the staffing of our workforce is to blame. The only reason a facility can't release is staffing.

 

[breakaway2000]

So I haven't been following this thread and realize I'm quite late, but where is your source for this? I started at N90 in 2014 and was the last new hire to go to N90 until middle of 2017. And I only saw maybe 3 or 4 people wash out (out of VRA and cpc-it), the rest withdrew from training. In my class of 4, 3 were VRA new hires and one was a CPC transfer from ZAU and it was the ZAU transfer who washed out in the lab. 2 of us VRA's certified (both at minimum hours) and the other withdrew because she didn't want to be stuck on Long Island. Probably 75% of the withdrawals happened when the ERR MOU was announced. Lots of people bid here for the $28k move money and a way out and then withdrew from training to get offered a huge list (center controllers were given their pick of any center in the country).

Part of the problem was that until a couple years ago, the FAA didnt look at what experience military Controllers had and treated them all equally. This meant people from slow Army Guard towers were getting sent to level 12 TRACONS. They don't do that anymore. There's only a hand ful of about 6-7 bases between all the branches that are offered level 10+ now.

Data used to be available on the KSN, I'll PM you more. "Washing Out" was perhaps the wrong term to use. The data incorporated training failures and withdrawals. In this case, only 6 WD, the rest were training failures.

 

[16gtiguy]

I stick by overloading the 7 and belows with all new hires, no matter their experience.

The issue with this is that it’s not working for all facilities. When I can into the agency I was told the job is at XYZ and if you want it great if not there is the door. I was unlucky and got a facility that people don’t really want to come to because of the cost of living. Since NCEPT this past panel was the first time we could release 1, we had the ability to pick up 2 but didn’t cuz no one wants to come here. So if they load up low levels and expect them to fill the 11 and 12s it may work for some but not others. If no one is willing to come to my facility I will continue to be stuck 3000 Miles from home. If I knew then what I know now I never would have accepted the job and would have waited for a lower level facility that would have allowed me to get back home.

 

[ajmezz]

The issue with this is that it’s not working for all facilities. When I can into the agency I was told the job is at XYZ and if you want it great if not there is the door. I was unlucky and got a facility that people don’t really want to come to because of the cost of living. Since NCEPT this past panel was the first time we could release 1, we had the ability to pick up 2 but didn’t cuz no one wants to come here. So if they load up low levels and expect them to fill the 11 and 12s it may work for some but not others. If no one is willing to come to my facility I will continue to be stuck 3000 Miles from home. If I knew then what I know now I never would have accepted the job and would have waited for a lower level facility that would have allowed me to get back home.

I’m at a level 5 in D.C., so I understand that fully. Not everyone wants to go to level 11-12’s though either. There are only a couple people where I’m at that even have in for higher than a 9. We can’t be unique in that aspect. I would be all for having a level cap on err’s as well (say no higher than 4 above) to help out the mid level folks, but I know that’s super unpopular. There are always exceptions too bc I remember seeing academy grads being offered a couple really needy level 8’s due to nobody erring in. Like I’ve said in previous posts, as staffing improves everything should start moving more fluidly, but time will tell. Without knowing your facility and judging by your comment, I can only assume you’re probably at an 8-9, so at least you have that going for you, even if it is in a high col area.

 

[16gtiguy]

Like I’ve said in previous posts, as staffing improves everything should start moving more fluidly, but time will tell. Without knowing your facility and judging by your comment, I can only assume you’re probably at an 8-9, so at least you have that going for you, even if it is in a high col area.

Nope lvl 11, in the middle of the ocean. Where making 150k a year is poverty level.

 

[jdatc]

Nope lvl 11, in the middle of the ocean. Where making 150k a year is poverty level.

So.... N90 it is for you!

 

[ajmezz]

Nope lvl 11, in the middle of the ocean. Where making 150k a year is poverty level.

Ah yeah, that’s tough. That would definitely be a special case facility like I mentioned. A ccf is like approach and enroute, right? Kind of surprised enroute academy grads don’t get sent there, but then again I haven’t really paid much attention to that side of things.

 

[jakemorrill]

Nope lvl 11, in the middle of the ocean. Where making 150k a year is poverty level.

Ouch. So can you just not release because staffing? I would think with approach, tower, and enroute in your corner, you would be high on the pick list.

 

[breakaway2000]

Ah yeah, that’s tough. That would definitely be a special case facility like I mentioned. A ccf is like approach and enroute, right? Kind of surprised enroute academy grads don’t get sent there, but then again I haven’t really paid much attention to that side of things.

Essentially two facilities in one: tower/approach, and enroute. Enroute academy grads do get sent there.

 

[ehmeye]

I think that most controllers trying to leave their facilities would agree with your suggestions. If the end goal is staffing the system though, then it doesn't make sense. If a new cert is willing to go to those facilities that someone with more experience might not be, then the FAA is going to prefer to staff the system than let someone else from his facility go somewhere that doesn't need a person as bad.

I know a counter point to this is that there could be someone with more time in from another facility trying to get there, but it's up to the receiving facility to rank them.



Nobody has made these blanket statements that you got from the discussion above.... Nobody gets to decide. That's the point. Some new controllers are going to be better than controllers that have more than 6 months or a year in or whatever the proposed time would be. More importantly, as I said above, if these new hires are willing to go places the controllers with time in don't want to go, then that's what the FAA is going to want. Unfortunately that's not ideal for those people that want less desirable facilities, but the program is working as intended.

The vacation and RDO comment is irrelevant to the conversation, and maybe it's just because I tend to miss so much nuance on a message board, but this feels like you're just trying to discredit his opinion rather than address it.

As for the facility you left not being able to release for years, the staffing of our workforce is to blame. The only reason a facility can't release is staffing.

Any system that has no room for discretion is an objectively bad system.

I asked about seniority because if seniority shouldn't count in this instance, why should it count for RDOs and bidding? If a controller has been certified for years at a facility, has trained multiple trainees to CPC and wants to go elsewhere, and has had ERRs in to several facilities close to his/her family, why should a BRAND NEW CPC get to leave before he/she does?

 

[breakaway2000]

Since NCEPT this past panel was the first time we could release 1, we had the ability to pick up 2 but didn’t cuz no one wants to come here.

I'm really surprised you guys didn't get anyone this past panel. You guys got 1 out of 2 on the April panel, weren't eligible to select in February 18, December 17, or September 17, but did select 8 in June of 17.

 

[Maintainvfr]

Any system that has no room for discretion is an objectively bad system.

I asked about seniority because if seniority shouldn't count in this instance, why should it count for RDOs and bidding? If a controller has been certified for years at a facility, has trained multiple trainees to CPC and wants to go elsewhere, and has had ERRs in to several facilities close to his/her family, why should a BRAND NEW CPC get to leave before he/she does?

Staffing. The. System.

 

[ehmeye]

Staffing. The. System.

Your use of punctuation doesn't win the argument. Controllers shouldn't be paying for the FAA not staffing adequately and NATCA shouldn't be abetting them.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Your use of punctuation doesn't win the argument. Controllers shouldn't be paying for the FAA not staffing adequately and NATCA shouldn't be abetting them.

But controllers are paying. Controllers at the hard to staff and understaffed facilities are. Do you think anyone wants to work six day work weeks? Why should the people who want to be able to move anywhere at their leisure get priority over the people that want to only work 40 hours?

 

[Dolan]

I can tell you as someone who used to work at an extremely high COL low level tower, making who gets to leave first in first out based on time at the facility is the only system that won't leave certain people feeling like they've been cheated. Meaning, if you're able to release someone you take the controller who's been there the longest who wants to go somewhere less than 100% staffed and you let them go.

If you were to sit all the controllers at my old tower down I guarantee you that this is the system they would agree on. It might not work for bigger places but bigger places don't have 100% of the CPC's and 100% of the trainees with active ERR's on file (well, maybe N90 is up there)

 

[ehmeye]

But controllers are paying. Controllers at the hard to staff and understaffed facilities are. Do you think anyone wants to work six day work weeks? Why should the people who want to be able to move anywhere at their leisure get priority over the people that want to only work 40 hours?

I worked 6 day weeks, and it sucked. I trained my (and other) developmentals all day if there was traffic, so I definitely commiserate with anyone in that position. I left that facility last February, my FOL was received before NCEPT came into effect. I was the last one out, I was lucky. It left 11 controllers there. 15 trainees. As soon as 3 checked out, 3 retired. Another checkout, then a controller got a deviation to become a FLM. Right back to 11. Then the region decided that the facility was using too much overtime, even though without it staffing sometimes became extremely iffy. Training becomes an afterthought.

Through it all there is a CPC who came from a contract tower, accepting the job because he knew that once he certified, he could get back to his family who live in a metro area 4 hours away that he only sees on weekends now. But with NCEPT coming into effect just before he certified it throws a huge wrench in the works, cause there's a ridiculous staffing number of 22 at this facility. (When I got there, there were 18 CPCs and that was the highest staffing it had been in over 20 years. All spot leave could be approved, hour long breaks, etc). Can't hardship home, cause he accepted the job knowing he would be away from his family. Fine, those are the rules. Doesn't complain, works hard to get these trainees through the system. He has 6 ERRs in to places near his home, all to facilities that can pick up controllers, some ranked high. Now, in two years or so when the facility can finally release ONE controller, a sparkly new CPC can go to a facility at their "leisure" because it was ranked 2 spots higher than the facility his trainer put in his paperwork for. That's not right.

I'm not talking about people trying to move to a 100% staffed facility in paradise or something like that. Screw that noise. And if a brand new CPC wants to try his/her luck at a facility with a critical staffing MOU, then ship them ASAP. Maintainvfr is right about needing to staff the NAS. But otherwise, if controllers have ERRs in to similarly staffed facilities, then seniority should count for something.

 

[16gtiguy]

So.... N90 it is for you!

One understaffed island for another, no thanks!

Ouch. So can you just not release because staffing? I would think with approach, tower, and enroute in your corner, you would be high on the pick list.

Yep low staffing, we work one side of the house either terminal (tower/approach) or enroute.

Essentially two facilities in one: tower/approach, and enroute. Enroute academy grads do get sent there.

This is correct, the terminal side stopped accepting academy grads a while back. Not sure why, honestly they were every bit as good as the people we are getting from low lvl towers and past experience hires.

I'm really surprised you guys didn't get anyone this past panel. You guys got 1 out of 2 on the April panel, weren't eligible to select in February 18, December 17, or September 17, but did select 8 in June of 17.

Cuz no one what’s to come here, of the 8 that we picked up June of 17 I think only 5 showed up. We have a lot back out once the reality of cost of living hits them. I don’t know what the ver age is but i think we also have a higher rate of people pulling out of training or hardshipping during or shortly after certification.

 

[Stinger]

Cuz no one what’s to come here, of the 8 that we picked up June of 17 I think only 5 showed up. We have a lot back out once the reality of cost of living hits them.

I saw you had selected one from ERI last year. I met him briefly at RTF when he came from HCF to visit his wife who was on her way back to ERI. I never saw her get selected for HCF though.

 

[Dolan]

Nope lvl 11, in the middle of the ocean. Where making 150k a year is poverty level.

How can you say that when people do just fine at OGG and ITO? Maui certainly isn't any cheaper and I'd still rather be on Oahu making 150 than the big island making 90...

 

[breakaway2000]

Cuz no one what’s to come here, of the 8 that we picked up June of 17 I think only 5 showed up. We have a lot back out once the reality of cost of living hits them. I don’t know what the ver age is but i think we also have a higher rate of people pulling out of training or hardshipping during or shortly after certification.

For all those reading, this is the second half of why you should only have ERR's in to places you will 100% go to. There are certain windows to get to certain facilities. For the June 2017 panel, his facility finally gets high enough on the list, they filled all 8 of their spots and then 3 people don't show up. Those three people blocked three other people who would have gone. Now, a year later, you're seeing the secondary effect of those 3 bodies not inching closer to CPC status to allow for other releases from the facility. You aren't just hurting people at your facility by turning an offer down, it's a ripple effect down the line.

Here's a basic checklist of questions I could answer before putting in an ERR to a facility.

1. Cost of Living - What is the real estate market or rental market like? How close/far away from the facility would I have to live? What would a rough budget look like?
2. Schools - If you have kids, what are the schools rated nearby? How much are homes in that area?
3. Job Market - If you have a spouse that works, will she be able to find comparable employment?
4. Entertainment - What is there to do near the facility or where I want to live?

If I was comfortable with everything I found out, then I would talk to FacReps and find out more about the facility. Although I don't expect the average person to do this, I toured every single facility I ever had an ERR into. I could tell you what the training department looked like, the break room, the normal shift rotations, etc.

In this job, we are constantly educating ourselves, I'd encourage everyone to take that approach with ERRs.