NCEPT debate thread

#1349 said:
I’m not replying to the messages here in hopes of getting feathers ruffled, I’m simply stating what I have been told regarding the NCEPT process.

There are apparently too many CPC-IT’s in training, at too many facilities, and the FAA is wanting to reevaluate the transfer process. Hence the possibility of NCEPT panels now being stretched out to every 6 months.
Click to expand...

I think a solution to this is actually one that's completely independent from the NCEPT process.

I think ALL training programs at all facilities need to be reevaluated and overhauled.

The reason there are so many CPC-ITs is because it takes so freaking long to get through training.

In my mind, we can break this down into facility levels.

Levels 4-7 generally take forever to get through the process (with a few exceptions obviously) because they are waiting for the "busy" traffic. i.e. "We don't certify anyone until we see them work Osh Kosh week." Or to a lesser extent, "We need to see you work summer traffic."

So basically, you just sit on a position just to "get time" or "build your hours."

They don't care about quality, they care about quantity and then when it does get "busy" they (supes) expect flawless execution since you have many hours even if they are inflated by "building hours." One mistake during those skill checks send you back another month.

For higher level facilities. Levels 8-12. This is less of an issue. The issues for these facilities are the training departments.

You get to the facility and you have to wait for a CD class or a D side class or whatever. Sometimes this is months. Then you train on said position. Then you wait to get scheduled for a class of the next position while only working CD or Data. And so on and so forth.

So most of the time is waiting to get through a class or simulators which in a lot of cases is just overkill in my opinion.

My current facility took 1 year and 4 months to certification (Level 8 up/down). I was ACTIVELY training for less than 6 months total. The rest of the time was waiting for classes.

THIS is why all training programs need to be audited and possibly revamped!

End rant.
 
corn4ahead said:
I think a solution to this is actually one that's completely independent from the NCEPT process.

I think ALL training programs at all facilities need to be reevaluated and overhauled.

The reason there are so many CPC-ITs is because it takes so freaking long to get through training.

In my mind, we can break this down into facility levels.

Levels 4-7 generally take forever to get through the process (with a few exceptions obviously) because they are waiting for the "busy" traffic. i.e. "We don't certify anyone until we see them work Osh Kosh week." Or to a lesser extent, "We need to see you work summer traffic."

So basically, you just sit on a position just to "get time" or "build your hours."

They don't care about quality, they care about quantity and then when it does get "busy" they (supes) expect flawless execution since you have many hours even if they are inflated by "building hours." One mistake during those skill checks send you back another month.

For higher level facilities. Levels 8-12. This is less of an issue. The issues for these facilities are the training departments.

You get to the facility and you have to wait for a CD class or a D side class or whatever. Sometimes this is months. Then you train on said position. Then you wait to get scheduled for a class of the next position while only working CD or Data. And so on and so forth.

So most of the time is waiting to get through a class or simulators which in a lot of cases is just overkill in my opinion.

My current facility took 1 year and 4 months to certification (Level 8 up/down). I was ACTIVELY training for less than 6 months total. The rest of the time was waiting for classes.

THIS is why all training programs need to be audited and possibly revamped!

End rant.
Click to expand...
At large facilities you're more often than not waiting to go back to training because other trainees are using the classroom and/or lab time in the training department. Rarely (at least at the three facilities I have been to) are you "seasoning" while the training department sits empty...
 
GulfBravoPapa said:
At large facilities you're more often than not waiting to go back to training because other trainees are using the classroom and/or lab time in the training department. Rarely (at least at the three facilities I have been to) are you "seasoning" while the training department sits empty...
Click to expand...

Yeah exactly, that's kinda my point. You are waiting for class in some way or another.
 
corn4ahead said:
Yeah exactly, that's kinda my point. You are waiting for class in some way or another.
Click to expand...
That's not the fault of the training department. There are just too many trainees... The labs can only process so many people at a time. Unless you're going to run more lab shifts (hire more contracted employees) or reduce the number of lab problems, I don't see how you're going to not wait to go back to lab.
 
GulfBravoPapa said:
That's not the fault of the training department. There are just too many trainees... The labs can only process so many people at a time. Unless you're going to run more lab shifts (hire more contracted employees) or reduce the number of lab problems, I don't see how you're going to not wait to go back to lab.
Click to expand...

Again, you're making my point for me.

Your response is basically why there hasn't been any changes made. They keep making these excuses saying things like “it isn't our fault,” and “it's out of our control” and “there’s just too many trainees.”

Instead of actually doing something like you suggested (which are great ideas IMO), they just accept the status quo. It's a horrible mindset to have and it stops change from happening. It's why we are stuck in the staffing crisis.

By the time we have new CPCs, the next wave of retirements hit and the cycle is neverending.
 
corn4ahead said:
THIS is why all training programs need to be audited and possibly revamped!
Click to expand...

Agreed. L11 tower took me 2.5 years to get through training (after being a prior L7 CPC) because the training specialist here is incompetent and management has invented their own interpretation of the training order where working "moderate traffic under general supervision" actually means "extreme traffic under no supervision," so they max your hours out on every position and then you go into hours extension on every position and your FLM tells you "I'm extending your hours not because you're not doing a good job, I just want you to see more situations," which is not an acceptable use of the 20% hour extension.

All the while you're training maybe an hour a day average because nobody knows how yo run a rotation and because, again, youre not training for the traffic we have, youre training for the traffic you wish we had, so you can only train on the literal busiest hour of any given day.

And the CPCs wonder why they cant get spot leave or ERR out, dont realize that these things are a function of staffing which is a result of a piss-awful training department. And management tells you to your face "Hey, it's not as bad as it used to be...XYZ Controller took 3.5 years to cert!" Because somehow that is an acceptable timeframe to certify for a non-radar tower and comparing currently horrendous but slightly less so times-to-cert with the atrocities that they used to be and saying "Look! Progress!" absolves upper management from having a rudimentary understanding of the proper application of the Training Order.

/end rant.

Can we get a rant board? Lol
 
Foogy said:
And given that 28% of the workforce is in training and CPC numbers are trending downward, truthfully it's a not too bad decision.
Click to expand...

This is a problem for sure, but I wonder if that 28% number is higher then recent numbers? Ever since the hiring blitz starting in 2009 I’ve been hearing that “roughly a third of the workforce is training”.

Also “management has invented their own interpretation of the training order where working "moderate traffic under general supervision" actually means "extreme traffic under no supervision” is the biggest mistake most facilities make which delays certifications. That and the low level facilities with god complexes who do think you need to see two years of Oshkosh traffic even though the facility is 1,200 miles away and there is nothing more then a 10% increase in overflight traffic that week.

The shame with those two scenarios is that it is not just management, most of the OJTIs have that perverted and self centered view as well. It’s slowly getting better with this new generation but still a big struggle.
 
Phillyman2633 said:
Agreed. L11 tower took me 2.5 years to get through training (after being a prior L7 CPC) because the training specialist here is incompetent and management has invented their own interpretation of the training order where working "moderate traffic under general supervision" actually means "extreme traffic under no supervision," so they max your hours out on every position and then you go into hours extension on every position and your FLM tells you "I'm extending your hours not because you're not doing a good job, I just want you to see more situations," which is not an acceptable use of the 20% hour extension.

All the while you're training maybe an hour a day average because nobody knows how yo run a rotation and because, again, youre not training for the traffic we have, youre training for the traffic you wish we had, so you can only train on the literal busiest hour of any given day.

And the CPCs wonder why they cant get spot leave or ERR out, dont realize that these things are a function of staffing which is a result of a piss-awful training department. And management tells you to your face "Hey, it's not as bad as it used to be...XYZ Controller took 3.5 years to cert!" Because somehow that is an acceptable timeframe to certify for a non-radar tower and comparing currently horrendous but slightly less so times-to-cert with the atrocities that they used to be and saying "Look! Progress!" absolves upper management from having a rudimentary understanding of the proper application of the Training Order.

/end rant.

Can we get a rant board? Lol
Click to expand...

Wow. This hit the nail on the head.

The "moderate traffic under general supervision" statement gets ignored way too much.

I'm so sick and tired of"it's not as bad as it used to be." Like come on! As if that's an excuse to stop trying to improve.
 
corn4ahead said:
I think a solution to this is actually one that's completely independent from the NCEPT process.

I think ALL training programs at all facilities need to be reevaluated and overhauled.

The reason there are so many CPC-ITs is because it takes so freaking long to get through training.

In my mind, we can break this down into facility levels.

Levels 4-7 generally take forever to get through the process (with a few exceptions obviously) because they are waiting for the "busy" traffic. i.e. "We don't certify anyone until we see them work Osh Kosh week." Or to a lesser extent, "We need to see you work summer traffic."

So basically, you just sit on a position just to "get time" or "build your hours."

They don't care about quality, they care about quantity and then when it does get "busy" they (supes) expect flawless execution since you have many hours even if they are inflated by "building hours." One mistake during those skill checks send you back another month.

For higher level facilities. Levels 8-12. This is less of an issue. The issues for these facilities are the training departments.

You get to the facility and you have to wait for a CD class or a D side class or whatever. Sometimes this is months. Then you train on said position. Then you wait to get scheduled for a class of the next position while only working CD or Data. And so on and so forth.

So most of the time is waiting to get through a class or simulators which in a lot of cases is just overkill in my opinion.

My current facility took 1 year and 4 months to certification (Level 8 up/down). I was ACTIVELY training for less than 6 months total. The rest of the time was waiting for classes.

THIS is why all training programs need to be audited and possibly revamped!

End rant.
Click to expand...
There are new workgroups that will be going through every facility and evaluating their training programs I believe. The same workgroup that redid the N90 training program recently. I know one thing they want to figure out at ZNY is why are people wasting 12+ months in the pit.
A guy at my facility is on the team, can’t remember if he was a high school or or college professor before ATC.
 
Robertb said:
My Proposal:
1) Stop all new hires from going to 9s and higher and send them all to the academy before they go to the field
2) Close/consolidate the slowest 10% of facilities and offer those affected employees full PCS moves to available openings at level 9s and below (use seniority to sort the list)
3) Have a rotating list of top ten priority facilities, each month, that allows for automatic releases (no longer than a year) to anyone willing to go from a facility outside of the top ten. The top five facilities will offer paid moves.
4) If you turn down an ERR offer, you are penalized one full year from the time you declined the offer from submitting any move paperwork
Click to expand...
Agreed put MLU in that 10%
 
#1349 said:
I’m not replying to the messages here in hopes of getting feathers ruffled, I’m simply stating what I have been told regarding the NCEPT process.

There are apparently too many CPC-IT’s in training, at too many facilities, and the FAA is wanting to reevaluate the transfer process. Hence the possibility of NCEPT panels now being stretched out to every 6 months.
Click to expand...
A supe told me the CPC rates are abysmal apparently as well
 

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