Shoot The Breeze

[32andBelow]

The term racial injustice is idk a bit disingenuous nowadays. Let me explain why I think that. We've all heard the phrase that black males are disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system right? And that's because the justice system is racist right?

Males are disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system, does that mean the justice system is sexist? no that's ridiculous. this is the case because males commit more crimes than women do, and black males commit more crimes than other demographics do.

Some factors that are rarely discussed about why that is are: compared to other demographics, the dads are there less. less of a father figure and role model coupled with a single mom that's out of the house to work, coupled with being in a state of poverty = more crime, to keep it short.

When you say racial injustice, what do you specifically mean?

How do you think a black person feels and is affected when they are told from day 1 that the system is against them, that everything negative that happens to them is because of race, that they are powerless and need the white man to come in and save them?

No it’s because of things like crack offenses getting harsher penalties than cocaine. Even though it’s the same drug.

 

[grackfields420]

No it’s because of things like crack offenses getting harsher penalties than cocaine. Even though it’s the same drug.

sure man, i'll give it to you that nixon's war on drugs was designed to target blacks and hippies if that's what you were trying to say. but you honestly don't believe that black poverty and family structure have anything to do with black crime rates?

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Yeah I feel you man, the riots and protests were initially due to police brutality. But because things have become so polarized and since identity politics is now the status quo, saying something like "yeah sure increased training for police but not are cops are bad" might elicit a response like oh you must be a trumpet or a nazi or something like that. The culture of civil discourse in this country is at an all time low, and so when its the norm to oversimplify (whether maliciously or not, for example memes that condense a complex issue into a few words) everything, then its natural to see glaring logical inconsistencies become realities.

So me personally, and I say this with complete honesty, idgaf about whos in office or not, nothings really changed at all in my view since I was born in the 90s, and up until now there has been no single issue that would have compelled me to overcome my apathy and actually go vote. I have no strong personal feelings about guns or abortions or LGBTQ rights or religion or health care or welfare etc because it doesn't affect me personally - and I am very aware that's a selfish thing but tbh that's the truth, and I do not doubt that's the case for a lot of other people too.

- I'm pro 2A but sure extensive background checks
- Pro choice
- Gay marriage sure idc doesn't affect me
- Dont mind calling a he a she or vice versa if it makes em feel better
- Against illegal aliens
- drastically reduce military spending and use the funds for domestic things, though I get why they don't

etc, my viewpoints pretty much in this day and age have me hated by both sides. but since I don't actually care about the issues enough at the end of the day it doesn't matter whos on the throne. But the one thing I actually do care somewhat about is law and order, and I really actually do mean that, I don't mean like the George floyd cop getting off, I literally mean law and order.

In the absence of law and order, there is unnecessary suffering. Take a look at any social upheaval (whether a good or and outcome was effected doesn't matter) in history and you'll see that there was a LOT of collateral damage.

some examples off the top of my head: french revolution, cultural revolution, the khmer rouge

I'm not saying BLM is pol pot, but what I am saying is rather than looting and saying fuck the police, why not spend your political capital on effecting the passing of legislation and regulations that would benefit whatever it is that you're protesting for?

Whereas in the 1950s and 60s you had people marching peacefully for things like equal rights for blacks resulting in things like brown v board, the various civil rights acts etc. Nowadays I hope its clear that whats going on now is nothing like that and will result in nothing like that

Here's a recent example - the teacher in paris getting beheaded and the priests getting shot and stuff. does this mean all Muslims in France are bad and gonna freak out and behead someone? no it doesn't that's ridiculous.

but do you see why that murderer's actions have gotten the rest a bad rap and now non-muslim french people are becoming more prejudiced against Muslims? it's logically absurd that they would but in reality its completely understandable. this happened after 9/11, all of you were around for that and i was in school then and the few muslim/arabic looking people in my school got a bad rap, they got bullied with terrorist jokes and shit and it wasn't cool

the same applies to my viewpoint about the riots. yes i know biden does not condone the riots, but just as there are single issue voters on things like 2A or abortion or LGBTQ rights, the degradation of law and order as a result of the rioting, in it of itself, is my single issue that would compel me from abstaining because i dislike both candidates to voting red. however, because of identity politics manufactured by the powers that be, it is now, to me, trump = you can't throw a tantrum like a child and get your way, and biden = yeah you can.

I hope that helped

Thats all good and fine, I don't like either option either. Hell, if it makes sense I dislike them for a lot of the same reasons, I think they are both corporatist pieces of garbage who only exist in politics to advance wealthy and powerful, as do both party apparati, just one is a little less blatant about it. I give zero fucks about identity politics,aside from thinking everyone should have equal rights and respect for each other. I give two shits about whose baking who's cake or what bathroom you want to use. That's all bullshit.

I live in a state where my vote for president doesn't matter. I am probably gonna cast a protest vote in the president section at the ballot box.

That said, one is also enabling the worst factions of American society, engendering an attitude of disrespect for others, and actually stoking violence and cheering on violent actors. That guy isn't Biden. If my vote did count I'm not voting for the other guy.

All that to say you support the law and order candidate, yet it wasn't Joe Biden who's watch this all happened on. There haven't been multiple stochastic terrorists in the last 4 years who where ardent Biden supporters, I'm talking people who actually murdered people, and I'm not talking at protests I'm talking at churches and synogauges and workplaces. And I guarantee if you ask any of the "antifas" how they feel about Joe Biden, your answer will be pretty negative too. I don't see Joe Biden cheering on violence or reposting tweets from known provacatuers of said actions.

Moreover saying you have a problem with people throwing tantrums to get their way politically after we didn't get paid for weeks on end this last shutdown isn't exactly congruent with your line of reasoning.

Also, you should absolutely vote, because telling me your views on here does nothing, and means nothing if you aren't willing to do something about it. Apathy is a big part of the problem in my eyes, if anything vote in your local elections, that's probably 10 times more important than who your president is on your day to day, being a fed employee aside.

 

[32andBelow]

sure man, i'll give it to you that nixon's war on drugs was designed to target blacks and hippies if that's what you were trying to say. but you honestly don't believe that black poverty and family structure have anything to do with black crime rates?

You don’t think making huge swaths of minorities convicted felons for minor drug offenses contributes to their poverty and continued criminal behavior?

 

[Merle]

sure man, i'll give it to you that nixon's war on drugs was designed to target blacks and hippies if that's what you were trying to say. but you honestly don't believe that black poverty and family structure have anything to do with black crime rates?

Normally I wouldn’t engage with something like this, but when you look at the proportions of black poverty, crime, and family life, do you see that as something inherent to blackness or do you see a system designed to fail people that are black?

Because if it’s the former I can just mUte you and be done with it.

 

[grackfields420]

It doesn’t help
No, both sides don’t hate you for your very unique views
If you really can’t bring yourself to care about things that don’t affect you, why would anyone care about your apathetic manifesto?
im not actually looking for a reply, that’s more a question for you to sit with

why would anyone care about VOTER APATHY? are you kidding me

people whose jobs it is to target that voter market care about it - aka political analysts for real world situations

hope that's an answer that you can sit with buddy

 

[grackfields420]

Normally I wouldn’t engage with something like this, but when you look at the proportions of black poverty, crime, and family life, do you see that as something inherent to blackness or do you see a system designed to fail people that are black?

Because if it’s the former I can just mUte you and be done with it.

yeah i really don't see how if you paid any actual attention to my previous posts at all that I would believe something that like that and in fact I find it extremely insulting

you're taking what I said about clear documented statistics about the prevalence of absentee fathers in the black community relative to others being a contributor to things like poverty and crime and twisting it into an insinuation that black people are poor because they're black? in fact im gonna mute you

 

[Peter Gibbons]

yeah i really don't see how if you paid any actual attention to my previous posts at all that I would believe something that like that and in fact I find it extremely insulting

you're taking what I said about clear documented statistics about the prevalence of absentee fathers in the black community relative to others being a contributor to things like poverty and crime and twisting it into an insinuation that black people are poor because they're black? in fact im gonna mute you

Why do you suppose they have absentee fathers, lower income, lower high school graduation rates, etc?

You think it could be the justice system in this country hasn't changed since the Jin crow era in regards to its treatment of African Americans, and the product of that, combined with the harsher drug sentences, statistically proven harsher punishments for young black men, a profit focused prison system that breeds repeat offenders and does nothing to rehabilitate or set these dudes up to do better for themselves so they end up in the same hole has nothing to do with that? How about the lack of funding for inner city schools, compared to majority white suburban ones? Or a lack of affordable housing outside the city, forcing people into slummy housing projects?

I mean are we just discounting all of that?

I mean fuck dude I'm not calling you a racist, but some of the stuff you are saying is coming off a little...... Ya know.

 

[grackfields420]

Why do you suppose they have absentee fathers, lower income, lower high school graduation rates, etc?

You think it could be the justice system in this country hasn't changed since the Jin crow era in regards to its treatment of African Americans, and the product of that, combined with the harsher drug sentences, statistically proven harsher punishments for young black men, a profit focused prison system that breeds repeat offenders and does nothing to rehabilitate or set these dudes up to do better for themselves so they end up in the same hole has nothing to do with that? How about the lack of funding for inner city schools, compared to majority white suburban ones? Or a lack of affordable housing outside the city, forcing people into slummy housing projects?

I mean are we just discounting all of that?

I mean fuck dude I'm not calling you a racist, but some of the stuff you are saying is coming off a little...... Ya know.

I have not provided an explanation for why there is a higher rate of absentee fathers or lower income, the only thing that I have said is that the rate is there, which it is.
The only things that I have said is that a lack of a role model + poverty = more crime, nor have I discounted the things in your list. Let me know if you dispute any of that, if you don't, please explain how me saying any of that is... ya know, because I don't see it.

The -problem- is that black males are committing crimes. What is the solution? In your list, the only thing I think that would actually have a preventative effect on first offenders is school funding, and even if you did throw money at that, how does that address a general broken family structure and poverty?

Honest question: you have just been elected president and both congress and the courts are on your side, how do you solve this problem?

 

[32andBelow]

I have not provided an explanation for why there is a higher rate of absentee fathers or lower income, the only thing that I have said is that the rate is there, which it is.
The only things that I have said is that a lack of a role model + poverty = more crime, nor have I discounted the things in your list. Let me know if you dispute any of that, if you don't, please explain how me saying any of that is... ya know, because I don't see it.

The -problem- is that black males are committing crimes. What is the solution? In your list, the only thing I think that would actually have a preventative effect on first offenders is school funding, and even if you did throw money at that, how does that address a general broken family structure and poverty?

Honest question: you have just been elected president and both congress and the courts are on your side, how do you solve this problem?

Start by not making them convicted felons cus they toked a fatty

 

[Phillyman2633]

Start by not making them convicted felons cus they toked a fatty

 

[Peter Gibbons]

I have not provided an explanation for why there is a higher rate of absentee fathers or lower income, the only thing that I have said is that the rate is there, which it is.
The only things that I have said is that a lack of a role model + poverty = more crime, nor have I discounted the things in your list. Let me know if you dispute any of that, if you don't, please explain how me saying any of that is... ya know, because I don't see it.

The -problem- is that black males are committing crimes. What is the solution? In your list, the only thing I think that would actually have a preventative effect on first offenders is school funding, and even if you did throw money at that, how does that address a general broken family structure and poverty?

Honest question: you have just been elected president and both congress and the courts are on your side, how do you solve this problem?

I'm asking you what you think the explanation for that is, in your opinion, as was Merle. You refuse to answer it. That is the key to the question here, and for the life of me I can't figure out why you won't answer it.

What I'm saying is these things are cyclical, and we do nothing to break that cycle as a society. I'd change literally all the things I mentioned, decriminalization of most drugs, and ensure prison is more about reform than just punishment. The punishment is losing your freedoms for your sentence, it shouldn't be being treated like an animal. Our system breeds reoffenders by being criminal College, and not offering these dudes a path to make things better when they get out. Also, once they get out, full restoration of their rights, and stop making felons second class citizens. Checking the felon box on a job application is a ticket to a shit job, now we are rinsing and repeating the cycle again.

Fix those things, make education and housing more affordable so people don't have to turn to crime to get by, the people do better for themselves, the neighborhoods get better, the crime rate goes down, etc.

I mean you think these protests are about the killing of singular men? No they are about systemic, long term problems, the killing of the men is just an outlet for frustration.

grackfields420 i don't really care what your opinion of John Oliver is, but just for context, watch the first few minutes as to what she's speaking about, but pay close attention to the woman at the end. That's a better explanation than I could ever give you about what the problem is.

Civil disobedience is only good when “we’re” doing it.

Property damage for me, none for thee.

I mean trumpism kinda sprang out of the tea party movement, named after a nationally celebrated historical event where dudes got drunk at a bar, decided to dress up like Indians, trespass on ships and destroy private businesses' property to show thier disapproval of governance, and here we are in 2020 and these same people are getting mad about the same thing they named their defunct political movement after less than a decade later.

Shits wild homie.

 

[Phillyman2633]

grackfields420 i don't really care what your opinion of John Oliver is, but just for context, watch the first few minutes as to what she's speaking about, but pay close attention to the woman at the end. That's a better explanation than I could ever give you about what the problem is.

Im on board with your last post about prison reform but this video did nothing for me.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Im on board with your last post about prison reform but this video did nothing for me.

I mean.... I think it encapsulates the problem at hand pretty well, certainly made me understand a little better.

I was on board with it already, kinda didn't understand the property damage in your own neighborhood aspect of it though, but this kinda made me get it a little better.

 

[Phillyman2633]

I mean.... I think it encapsulates the problem at hand pretty well, certainly made me understand a little better.

I was on board with it already, kinda didn't understand the property damage in your own neighborhood aspect of it though, but this kinda made me get it a little better.

It's not really self-servicing when you use emotion and hyperbole to mask facts. Burn down Target? Yeah, tell that to all the small black business owners in Philly who are filing insurance claims (if they're lucky) right now because all the looting and rioting is being done in predominantly black neighborhoods. It also alienates a large portion of the general public from your cause when you say things like "You're lucky we only want equality and not retribution."

 

[grackfields420]

I'm asking you what you think the explanation for that is, in your opinion, as was Merle. You refuse to answer it. That is the key to the question here, and for the life of me I can't figure out why you won't answer it.

What I'm saying is these things are cyclical, and we do nothing to break that cycle as a society. I'd change literally all the things I mentioned, decriminalization of most drugs, and ensure prison is more about reform than just punishment. The punishment is losing your freedoms for your sentence, it shouldn't be being treated like an animal. Our system breeds reoffenders by being criminal College, and not offering these dudes a path to make things better when they get out. Also, once they get out, full restoration of their rights, and stop making felons second class citizens. Checking the felon box on a job application is a ticket to a shit job, now we are rinsing and repeating the cycle again.

Fix those things, make education and housing more affordable so people don't have to turn to crime to get by, the people do better for themselves, the neighborhoods get better, the crime rate goes down, etc.

I mean you think these protests are about the killing of singular men? No they are about systemic, long term problems, the killing of the men is just an outlet for frustration.

I didn't answer Merle's question because it was a false dilemma fallacy. The choices were that either there is a "system that is designed to fail people that are black" or that I think the state of black poverty, crime, and family life are the way they are is because of something inherent to blacks and because I am racist. I hope you now can see why I didn't engage with that and why I blocked him because clearly there are other explanations for high black incarceration rates.

You want me to tell you what I think the reasons for the rate of black absentee fathers and poverty are? The short answer is I don't know - my guesses would be shit education, the lack of a drive from figures of authority (like parents!) to give a shit about school, rap music and that culture about the glamorization of fuck bitches get money, social media and the keeping with the jones' mindset that drives all of this, early parenthood, and crime. I don't see how this was such a big question for y'all like it was gonna be some gotcha for me but there you go

In response to your video, I understand. I watched the whole thing and I paid attention and I get it, but all police officers are not killing blacks, nor is target owned by police officers that kill blacks nor does target as a corporation kill blacks ... nor did target break a social contract with this woman lol so I'm not really sure why they should be a victim of that frustration

Now I'd like for you to please watch this video and tell me what you think its only 7 minutes

 

[Peter Gibbons]

It's not really self-servicing when you use emotion and hyperbole to mask facts. Burn down Target? Yeah, tell that to all the small black business owners in Philly who are filing insurance claims (if they're lucky) right now because all the looting and rioting is being done in predominantly black neighborhoods. It also alienates a large portion of the general public from your cause when you say things like "You're lucky we only want equality and not retribution."

Ya I think I'd be pissed at centuries of getting curb stomped on the equality front, followed by decades of "we fixed it" when.... Not so much no, not fixed.

I can absolutely be empathetic to that kind of emotion, as if I were in those shoes I'd be pretty fuckin pissed too.

 

[grackfields420]

Ya I think I'd be pissed at centuries of getting curb stomped on the equality front, followed by decades of "we fixed it" when.... Not so much no, not fixed.

I can absolutely be empathetic to that kind of emotion, as if I were in those shoes I'd be pretty fuckin pissed too.

Also can you please read this article in its entirety Looters clean out a boutique in less than one minute in Philadelphia
and tell me what you think?

If you were this black female business owner trying to succeed against the uh system that's designed to make her fail, would you would be ok with that because blacks have been getting curb stomped on the equality front?

 

[Peter Gibbons]

I didn't answer Merle's question because it was a false dilemma fallacy. The choices were that either there is a "system that is designed to fail people that are black" or that I think the state of black poverty, crime, and family life are the way they are is because of something inherent to blacks and because I am racist. I hope you now can see why I didn't engage with that and why I blocked him because clearly there are other explanations for high black incarceration rates.

You want me to tell you what I think the reasons for the rate of black absentee fathers and poverty are? The short answer is I don't know - my guesses would be shit education, the lack of a drive from figures of authority (like parents!) to give a shit about school, rap music and that culture about the glamorization of fuck bitches get money, social media and the keeping with the jones' mindset that drives all of this, early parenthood, and crime. I don't see how this was such a big question for y'all like it was gonna be some gotcha for me but there you go

In response to your video, I understand. I watched the whole thing and I paid attention and I get it, but all police officers are not killing blacks, nor is target owned by police officers that kill blacks nor does target as a corporation kill blacks ... nor did target break a social contract with this woman lol so I'm not really sure why they should be a victim of that frustration

Now I'd like for you to please watch this video and tell me what you think its only 7 minutes

I think blaming rap music is a cop out, sorry, that's laughable. I grew up banging DMX and shit in my truck I'm a productive member of society (kind of, mostly, I think?) What's next you gonna blame video games for school shootings? The rest of it, okay agree, but where do you think all those problems stem from? People overwhelmingly don't just choose to live shitty existences. People are products of thier environment. Change the environment. Maybe they'd have more emphasis on school if the schools prepared them for life and further education better. Maybe having that father figure home and not locked up for an Oz of weed and never able to get a decent job because if it is inhibiting a families ability to make a decent living where the kid don't have to become a corner guy to feed the little sister. Maybe that corner guy who gets locked up learns a skill and gets out and starts a business. Maybe all these things lead to better community ownership, and crime rate drops, maybe a lower crime rate brings in better business and outside investors and visitors, who further raise the tax rates and make the schools a little more self sufficient on the tax side.... Maybe thay drop in crime, combined with the decriminalization of drugs makes the cops less afraid of approaching young black men, less cops get shot at or assaulted during arrests, and we don't need the heavily militarized cops.....

See what I'm getting at here?

As far as rioting and your "all cops" statement, no not all cops are bad. My little bro is trying to be a cop. He's a super solid dude, though we disagree on many things. I know other cops, mostly decent dudes. But the decent dudes are part of a system with a lot of bad dudes in it as well. If that's due to training, personality, job stress, etc, fine whatever. Still needs fixing, and the cops who are part of that system are told from day one snitching is bad, always watch your buddies back, and constantly exposed in training to worst case scenarios. The system makes bad cops worse, and punishes those who try and change that overwhelmingly. It's not "all cops are bad people" it's all cops are bad because they are part of a bad system",and when they use their training by getting out and escalating protests with violence and tear gas in an already tense environment, no good can come of it. They should be deesclating. Thats leaving out the feds black bagging dudes on the streets of Portland, which is a fucking travesty in and of itself.

As far as the video, yes "white savior complex" in the sjw community is awful, problematic, and counter productive. I agree. Those people are morons. But I'm not gonna feel bad for a dude who lobs tear gas grenades and flashbangs and rubber bullets willy nilly into a crowd in a city with a long history of police violence against protest because he got hit with a beer can. Maybe Portland should change their police tactics, since firing indiscriminately on crowds from gun ports built into the courthouse because someone lobbed a firecracker at a concrete building doesn't seem to be getting the people to calm down for some reason.

 

[AB19]

Also can you please read this article in its entirety Looters clean out a boutique in less than one minute in Philadelphia
and tell me what you think?

If you were this black female business owner trying to succeed against the uh system that's designed to make her fail, would you would be ok with that because blacks have been getting curb stomped on the equality front?

Absolutely no one is saying its a good thing that people are rioting and looting, just that we understand their frustrations. It's just taking away from the actual point of discussion. That the system has been, and still is, very unfair to African Americans. Yes its a complex problem with complex solutions, but your entire second paragraph in the post before this one is frankly disgusting.