SID Question - Altitude Restrictions

[Paulson]

Pilot here - I'm at a military AETC base right now with a departure built to keep you under a MOA from another close AETC base.

My PDC will state: "Bigjet 5, cleared to XYZ via the BLABLA 2 departure MXE transition climb and maintain 9000 expect FL220 10 mins after departure local channel 7 squawk 4444"

As I understand it if I am cleared to a destination via a departure and told to climb and maintain a specific altitude then the altitude restrictions published would be deleted. If I was told to climb via the SID maintain (just maintain) 9000 then I would have comply with the intermittent altitudes on the SID.

I looked through the JO7110 and the AIM but I could be misinterpreting. Maybe at this base there is a localism I am not picking up on or I am flat out wrong. Wings are expensive, cheap to ask and thanks for the help.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

I'm an approach controller so I don't know about the correct phraseology when giving the initial departure clearance. That said, once airborne your line of thinking is correct. "Climb and maintain 9000" deletes the altitude restrictions prior to 9000. "Climb via the SID except maintain 9000" does not delete the restrictions and you still must comply with them. Perhaps ask the controller giving you the clearance on the ground which they intend for you to do to eliminate confusion?

 

[Paulson]

I could be confusing what I'd expect to hear in the air versus what the PDC states in regards to terminology however I thought it would still mean the same thing.

 

[Shikaka]

Paulson GBP is correct, if you're given climb via SID except maintain, then the restrictions apply. If given climb and maintain then the restrictions don't apply. It would help to clarify with the controllers handling you as well, since the "climb via" phraseology can be confusing at times.

 

[corn4ahead]

We always issue “climb via” on CD in the tower. Working departure, we almost always radar ID then climb to our top altitude. At least 50% of pilots ask if it’s unrestricted. I guess it’s a very confusing procedure and it isn’t taught well to pilots.

 

[CaptainObvious]

It’s not any different than a descend via. If issued climb via, then meet the restrictions on the SID up to the top altitude. If given “climb via except” then comply and climb above the top altitude. Cleared via the departure and climb and maintain means fly the lateral portion of the departure and set your own rate to the cleared altitude

 

[Paulson]

Thank you all for the input. I'm not sure why we are being taught that climb and maintain infers climb via except just because we are flying a SID. In UPT we had some interesting SIDs but always had a top altitude and restrictions to comply with. Though its military and AETC (localisms maybe), I just find it to be negative training and could be setting up people for failure. Even then military-ism shouldn't change much to how the NAS and phraseology works.

I'm going to stop by the tower and see if I can talk to the sup and clearance folks as well. I want to be thurough with such a matter.

 

[r9s]

At least 50% of pilots ask if it’s unrestricted

this

at my facility there are now several controllers that say "climb 'unrestricted' and maintain..."

 

[MJ]

Thank you all for the input. I'm not sure why we are being taught that climb and maintain infers climb via except just because we are flying a SID. In UPT we had some interesting SIDs but always had a top altitude and restrictions to comply with. Though its military and AETC (localisms maybe), I just find it to be negative training and could be setting up people for failure. Even then military-ism shouldn't change much to how the NAS and phraseology works.

I'm going to stop by the tower and see if I can talk to the sup and clearance folks as well. I want to be thurough with such a matter.

If you're getting the clearance from an AF tower, there's a 90% chance that's the problem 🙄

 

[CaptainObvious]

If you're getting the clearance from an AF tower, there's a 90% chance that's the problem 🙄

But. They always liked to tell those of us from other services about how epic and great they all were as controllers

 

[corn4ahead]

this

at my facility there are now several controllers that say "climb 'unrestricted' and maintain..."

I refuse to do that. Pilots need to learn. When they are on a STAR and I say “decend and maintain,” it is never questioned.

 

[Paulson]

I refuse to do that. Pilots need to learn. When they are on a STAR and I say “decend and maintain,” it is never questioned.

The thread has come full circle. 🙂

That is what is irritating about this particular issue - alot of emphasis has been placed on "climb via" or "descend via" but less on what climb and maintain and except maintain, and as a pilot have become aware of it be it on the ground or in the air. Then here is the first time I am hearing different after years of thou shalt climb via unless.

I'm cautious to call it out and scream I am right till I have every side but I am going to probe it assertively.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I refuse to do that. Pilots need to learn. When they are on a STAR and I say “decend and maintain,” it is never questioned.

But is it an RNAV STAR with published restrictions? Because if so then you’re invalidating the intent of the procedure

 

[Paulson]

If anyone is curious here is an excerpt from AFMAN 11-217 regarding NAS SID Phraseology:

 

[CaptainObvious]

If anyone is curious here is an excerpt from AFMAN 11-217 regarding NAS SID Phraseology:

View attachment 3135

It’s like they were quoting me

?

 

[corn4ahead]

But is it an RNAV STAR with published restrictions? Because if so then you’re invalidating the intent of the procedure

Yes but sometimes you need it faster than the STAR calls for.

 

[DankVectorz]

But is it an RNAV STAR with published restrictions? Because if so then you’re invalidating the intent of the procedure

If those restrictions are in place due to airspace than they’re not always needed.

 

[Paulson]

It’s like they were quoting me

?

Ha - from our end they have changed up the 217 to one volume. Meaning it's more condensed and simplified. What I like about the change however is that it sources the AIM, PCG, and FAA Orders. It is just generally easier to understand with more practical language and diagrams, for the most part.

I guess they know we just like picture books.

[I also talked to our local controllers at RAPCON and they agreed per the 7110 that its explicit in what climb maintain vs climb via vs climb via except.]

 

[CaptainObvious]

If those restrictions are in place due to airspace than they’re not always needed.

Usually ours are for stable descent profiles

 

[Paulson]

Thought of this for whatever reason today and didn't really close the loop - I talked to Stan Eval who has a liason with the civillian instructors and that was the last time I got flack for flying the regs correctly.

It was just a localism case and lack of transfer from the 'old way' of how climb via was interpreted.