Will NATCA and the FAA extend the contract?

[32andBelow]

Serious question: do you guys believe there isn’t government bloat and excess spending? We see it every day in the FAA. Think of all the staff specialists, the people who had their medical pulled 2 years ago who are waiting on paperwork to clear the flight surgeon, the people who clearly aren’t going to make it through training taking in $100,000+ since they took half on the go and use the contract to hang around way longer than they should, etc. Millions of wasted dollars just in my facility alone, and we’re a drop in the bucket of the federal workforce.

Sure. What’s your point tho?

 

[Soul_Controller]

Sure. What’s your point tho?

Well obviously the logical thing is to give a create a bureaucratic committee to identify all this useless bureaucracy.

 

[Spoony90]

Serious question: do you guys believe there isn’t government bloat and excess spending? We see it every day in the FAA. Think of all the staff specialists, the people who had their medical pulled 2 years ago who are waiting on paperwork to clear the flight surgeon, the people who clearly aren’t going to make it through training taking in $100,000+ since they took half on the go and use the contract to hang around way longer than they should, etc. Millions of wasted dollars just in my facility alone, and we’re a drop in the bucket of the federal workforce.

We had a center guy ERR to my facility. Was here for over 5 years and made no effort to train in radar because he didn’t want to certify. Only wanted to be here to finish his wife’s career. Constantly and purposefully did things against the SOP. We are all working 6 day work weeks to pick up his slack. Highest paid guy in the building and working the least. I can’t wait to get rid of people like that.

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

Sure. What’s your point tho?

My point is everyone in here is bitching and moaning about the creation of DOGE when it seems like a lot of us have evidence that it’s a pretty good idea.

Well obviously the logical thing is to give a create a bureaucratic committee to identify all this useless bureaucracy.

No, I think we should all complain about it and then when someone tries to address the inefficiencies we should complain about that too! /S

 

[32andBelow]

My point is everyone in here is bitching and moaning about the creation of DOGE when it seems like a lot of us have evidence that it’s a pretty good idea.

We already have an office of management and budget. We already have OIG inspectors. Shit like this is going leave them susceptible to recommending shit like: we spend so much on federal health insurance.

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

We already have an office of management and budget. We already have OIG inspectors. Shit like this is going leave them susceptible to recommending shit like: we spend so much on federal health insurance.

I definitely realize there’s an element of hypocrisy creating a government agency or hiring a consultant to manage government inefficiency. I think there is a lot more lower hanging fruit than health insurance benefits for federal employees. I’m open to changing my mind and being proven wrong if they start making recommendations like you’re suggesting

 

[KP-ATC]

You clearly were not around when Dubya imposed the white book and were employed under it's reign. Whenever the right controls the policy making... federal pay, benefits, and working conditions get put on the chopping block. That does not happen when the left has majority. 40% raises are unrealistic but the left keeps the food on the table. The more you vote R, the closer you get to letting the leopard eat your face. Why vote for a group that constantly puts your pay and benefits under fire?

I was around for it and remember when we got the legislative fix in after.

 

[32andBelow]

I definitely realize there’s an element of hypocrisy creating a government agency or hiring a consultant to manage government inefficiency. I think there is a lot more lower hanging fruit than health insurance benefits for federal employees. I’m open to changing my mind and being proven wrong if they start making recommendations like you’re suggesting

You should look up what space x pays. It’s not very good.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

We already have an office of management and budget. We already have OIG inspectors. Shit like this is going leave them susceptible to recommending shit like: we spend so much on federal health insurance.

Or maybe... JUST MAYBE, the focus will be on dumb-fuck ideas that have no place in the federal workspace (like spending millions on programs to hire and promote people based on "diversity" and other idiotic factors that are not at all related to merit).

Just maybe.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

It's amusing how many controllers whine about taxes and government yet have had their entire adult lives subsidized by the government. Military, Contract, DoD, FAA. But they got theirs so fuck everyone else.

Let’s hope we are all smart enough to differentiate between serving in the military and the federal government with the ones looking for a free ride on the welfare system

 

[Somenewguy]

My point is everyone in here is bitching and moaning about the creation of DOGE when it seems like a lot of us have evidence that it’s a pretty good idea.

You're conflating two things.

One: there is government waste and inefficiency.

Two: this department is a reasonable solution to this problem.

Most people will agree to one, but two doesn't make a lot of sense. There is already a department that does what DOGE is tasked to do. Which means that we will have a redundant department of efficiency. And that redundant department of efficiency will have two (billionaire) heads. Why would a billionaire take a government salary (pennies to them) so that they can run a department like this? Well, a billionaire whose primary wealth is tied up in businesses that rely on government subsidies and government action to control the market in which it operates would see this as a great tool to help influence decisions that impact their business. If you can't infer, I am talking about Elon Musk.

Elon Musk has companies which are facing lawsuits for illegal union busting behavior, and not complying with appropriate overtime pay and not giving legally required breaks. His idea of efficiency is making the laborers work harder. When the entire air traffic labor force is shouting that we work TOO MUCH now, this runs absolutely counter to his ethos of more hours and more output per hour. If his thinking is applied in aviation, where we work with contingencies and checklists to ensure multiple layers of safety: we will see accidents that can be directly attributed to these policies. Not to mention a much LOWER standard of living and working for Air Traffic controllers who stay with the career field because we will again be expected to do more with less.

You can complain about staff support specialists, but do you also want to be responsible for deciphering every relevant change in the 7110 and briefing the staff in a meaningful way? Do you want to run through the overtime roster while youre working 4 sectors combined during a thunderstorm? Do you want to be responsible for ensuring that the staff is briefed on fire evacuation procedures at the appropriate intervals? And do you want the government to be able to fire you when you "underperform" any of these job duties? All of the job duties these support jobs perform will just be thrust upon the line controllers and we will not get paid more for it. They are here to cut costs period.

 

[Move78]

The union says we’re supporting Hillary because Trump won’t win. They were wrong.

The union is us not they. But sure endorsing candidates is always internally controversial. But when 1 of the 2 parties are openly hostile towards you it’s understandable why labor leaders fall where they do.

The union says we need to extend because Trump might win. They were wrong.

This line makes no sense. We have no idea what the right move was until we see what our pay, benefits and working conditions will be under a contract negotiated under a Trump executive branch.

The union says we have to extend because the EOs are definitely coming back and for sure we’ll be screwed this time.

The union is split on this. But again see above.

Maybe, just maybe the union could be wrong with their track record. I got an email that says we have a Natca majority in Congress that’s stronger than ever. Maybe just maybe the union needs to start working and that involves working when it’s difficult.

If the union hasn’t been working I wonder how we got such allies in congress.

There is no court or labor authority that will rule an executive order forbidding negotiations of permissive subjects is legal. It was already ruled that way by a court but overturned because the appeals court said it had to goto the FLRA first. The fear mongering of the party cult crew is ridiculous.

There are children out there that aren’t this naive.

Extend the contract for 50 years then and reduce dues to a dollar. You don’t need to be out partying the union needs to be working.

‘The union hasn’t been doing any work’ is a strange shift for Rich’s biggest cuckboy.

 

[Move78]

We had a center guy ERR to my facility. Was here for over 5 years and made no effort to train in radar because he didn’t want to certify. Only wanted to be here to finish his wife’s career. Constantly and purposefully did things against the SOP. We are all working 6 day work weeks to pick up his slack. Highest paid guy in the building and working the least. I can’t wait to get rid of people like that.

Everyone always wants to pick up hIgH lEVelZ until they actually show and up you realize theres nothing special about Facility Pay Level.

 

[Horno]

When the entire air traffic labor force is shouting that we work TOO MUCH now, this runs absolutely counter to his ethos of more hours and more output per hour. If his thinking is applied in aviation, where we work with contingencies and checklists to ensure multiple layers of safety: we will see accidents that can be directly attributed to these policies.

yeah the thing is WE know that we’re working too much now, but NATCA has not made this clear at all to anyone. They have not used any near misses to indicate we’re overworked. For the common person they probably think whoever was working probably made a stupid mistake. They have no idea that the root cause is probably being overworked.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

You can complain about staff support specialists, but do you also want to be responsible for deciphering every relevant change in the 7110 and briefing the staff in a meaningful way? Do you want to run through the overtime roster while youre working 4 sectors combined during a thunderstorm? Do you want to be responsible for ensuring that the staff is briefed on fire evacuation procedures at the appropriate intervals? And do you want the government to be able to fire you when you "underperform" any of these job duties? All of the job duties these support jobs perform will just be thrust upon the line controllers and we will not get paid more for it. They are here to cut costs period.

SSS...

 

[Somenewguy]

I've worked with enough belligerently stupid people to know that staff support and QC are necessary duties.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

We already have an office of management and budget. We already have OIG inspectors. Shit like this is going leave them susceptible to recommending shit like: we spend so much on federal health insurance.

And how was that worked so far? We need outsiders to come in. Insiders won’t change anything for the good, only continue the bad.

 

[AS88]

Maybe DOGE can help with replacement chairs for the control areas. I have heard numerous times that the chairs we use are a couple thousand a piece yet they resemble a chair you'd find in an abandoned office building from the 80s.

This is the type government waste I assume they will be going after. At this point it's all speculation anyways, and with elected officials talk is cheap and ideas are thrown out constantly that never stick. So sit back in your old ass (but very expensive) dirty chair and let's just see what happens.

 

[32andBelow]

And how was that worked so far? We need outsiders to come in. Insiders won’t change anything for the good, only continue the bad.

bringing in CEOs who aren’t going to resign their positions isn’t it.

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

You should look up what space x pays. It’s not very good.

You're conflating two things.

One: there is government waste and inefficiency.

Two: this department is a reasonable solution to this problem.

Most people will agree to one, but two doesn't make a lot of sense. There is already a department that does what DOGE is tasked to do. Which means that we will have a redundant department of efficiency. And that redundant department of efficiency will have two (billionaire) heads. Why would a billionaire take a government salary (pennies to them) so that they can run a department like this? Well, a billionaire whose primary wealth is tied up in businesses that rely on government subsidies and government action to control the market in which it operates would see this as a great tool to help influence decisions that impact their business. If you can't infer, I am talking about Elon Musk.

Elon Musk has companies which are facing lawsuits for illegal union busting behavior, and not complying with appropriate overtime pay and not giving legally required breaks. His idea of efficiency is making the laborers work harder. When the entire air traffic labor force is shouting that we work TOO MUCH now, this runs absolutely counter to his ethos of more hours and more output per hour. If his thinking is applied in aviation, where we work with contingencies and checklists to ensure multiple layers of safety: we will see accidents that can be directly attributed to these policies. Not to mention a much LOWER standard of living and working for Air Traffic controllers who stay with the career field because we will again be expected to do more with less.

You can complain about staff support specialists, but do you also want to be responsible for deciphering every relevant change in the 7110 and briefing the staff in a meaningful way? Do you want to run through the overtime roster while youre working 4 sectors combined during a thunderstorm? Do you want to be responsible for ensuring that the staff is briefed on fire evacuation procedures at the appropriate intervals? And do you want the government to be able to fire you when you "underperform" any of these job duties? All of the job duties these support jobs perform will just be thrust upon the line controllers and we will not get paid more for it. They are here to cut costs period.

I understand your point about Elon having conflicts of interest, and it is a Legitimate concern. When it comes to strictly workplace efficiency it’s hard to argue there’s anyone better for the job. He reduced the workforce at Twitter by a reported 80% and the app still runs the same now as it ever has with less censorship. He attributed a lot of that to cutting out unnecessary departments and slashing middle management.
In an interview with Lex Fridman, Mark Zuckerberg credited Elon for leading the charge of trimming fat in the tech industry. He specifically referenced how he doesn’t like “managers managing managers”. Sound familiar? You can’t tell me with a straight face we need an OS, OM, XO, ATM, Assistant GM, GM, etc, etc. When business restructure that’s typically the first place they start slashing, and in the FAA there’s plenty of bloat in the National, Regional, and local management levels.
I’ve read multiple posts now about how the DOGE would be a redundant government agency or consulting group (whatever you want to call it). If that’s the case, isn’t the obvious solution to cut off the other agency that is clearly doing a poor job of identifying and cutting government waste in the first place?
Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t think the controllers keying up on the floor or in the cab are going to be the primary target. It’s going to be the bean counters who make a living doing ancillary duties that don’t really impact the operation.