you can’t be fired twice

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squab_captain

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I’m from the 2021 summer bid and this morning I was, “found unsuitable for FAA employment” because there is, “a history of issues related to pattern of misconduct or negligence in employment.” Sucks to be me, right? You are probably thinking, what did this guy do? Before this morning I thought of myself as a model citizen, never so much as been handed a speeding ticket. Actually I got one two weeks ago for going 40 mph in a 35 zone, but that is beside the point. I have a clean record and was forthcoming in my SF-86 on e-Qip. On June 24, 2022 a suitability adjudicator for the FAA notified me of an unfavorable suitability determination. They had not yet actioned it, but I was offered the opportunity to rebut the following charge.

Charge #1: Issues related to a pattern of misconduct or negligence in employment


  • In February 2020, you were terminated from Revolution after the following incidents occurred:
  • You had a verbal altercation with your kitchen manager and you disobeyed a request to discontinue taking food orders.
  • You had a verbal altercation with a customer regarding the quality of a drink you served the customer.
  • You were caught on video watching a game on your phone on a slow day.
  • In March 2022, you received a reprimand and a 5-day suspension for leaving packages at the end of driveways, in stairwells, and for not putting in the appropriate effort delivering packages while you were employed as a —— ————Transports (LHT), Inc., FedEx contractor.
  • In late March 2022, you were terminated from LHT after an additional complaint was sent to FedEx via video showing you throwing packages. Over the course of your employment at LHT, you received seven complaints for conduct and throwing packages. You Are not eligible for rehire.
You have demonstrated a pattern of misconduct or negligence as reflected in your employment history. For patterns, the conduct may begin prior to, but must extend into, the last 3 years

As of right now I choose not to post my 2,500-word response, but I assure you that it included reasonable explanations for each of the bullet points above as well as positive references from the very same places of employment. My response goes as far as to disprove small details such as being terminated in March 2022 when in actuality it was April 2022 (it matters because I had the security interview on April 1 when termination was not disclosed) and also proving that I am in fact eligible for rehire. If you consider the information above, sure it looks bad and I understand why it raises a flag. However I am having a hard time understanding why a reference-furnished response failed to mitigate the said red flag (unfavorable suitability determination). For example in a recommendation letter, the current general manager at Revolution (holding the position of the previous man that fired me) attested that my dismissal was uncalled for etc. My character is at stake because a suitability action looks at the character traits of a potential federal employee on a social and personal level rather than qualifications or skills. How can a praising account of the authority at Revolution still render an unfavorable outcome? You are not allowed to be fired more than once, but I believe to have negated at least one of two terminations.

Additionally I filed good references from other employers where I have worked over a year and where I work now. There is even a heartwarming account of a church official who speaks to my good character and voluntary service to the community.

The purpose of this post is not to seek help in order to reverse the decision. “Applicants to FAA positions do not have appeal rights.” I just find it incredible that in light of everything I am being placed in the same category as if I had a history of alcohol abuse, drugs, or gambling. If you sell drugs then you can’t work for the DEA. If you are guilty of embezzlement you can’t work in the treasury department. I was a bartender and delivery driver, what on earth has that got to do with ATCS in the FAA? I am, “debarred from FAA employment until July 3, 2025.”

My advice to people in the future is that if you can work the system, do it. Through research I found that in a security investigation they would have had to follow rigid steps to come to any conclusion much like a flow chart. Is this a fair outcome? Don’t trust security investigations or even medicals because you think you have a clean record. Omit if need be. After all the investigators are federal workers themselves. Just like controllers separate planes, you have hr specialists and adjudicators move down lists of criteria for a living. Don’t tell me there aren’t morons in towers and centers across the country doing the bare minimum for a decent paycheck. Hell I was about to be one (slightly joking aviation is my passion). Be proactive in avoiding specific scenarios. It’s guilty until proven innocent and proof of innocence is on you, not them.

A couple of years ago in England I was a bartender and had some misfortune that led to being fired. Wasn’t even going to include it on e-Qip, but because I used it as three years’ work experience instead of my British bachelors’ degree that had not yet been evaluated by a third party, I disclosed it. They really hit me with the, “lack of sound judgment and responsibility” copypasta. Bs. How can you say that to a person who is trusted to be pilot in command of a single piston airplane? Not to use qualifications as an excuse because, again, this is about character. However that is why I say the security investigation is black and white and that the investigator likely gives zero you know whats about the individual. I feel as though they did not consider the whole person.

Did I not provide enough information to mitigate the charge? If I had applied in the summer 2022 bid, could I have forfeited summer 2021 bid and been risk free of the first termination by the time the TOL comes in 2023 as that is outside the three year window?

Feel free to ask questions and let me know your thoughts. Much love
 

ClearanceClarence

Legendary Member
Messages
1,362
Wow, what a rant. You have no recourse and no means of appeal. As a new applicant, you are not entitled to anything and hiring is at the agency’s discretion. You may feel you were cheated out of a job, but when it boils down to it, you were not qualified based on your history. Period. You claim there’s an explanation to every concern the FAA noted, but honestly, every person in prison claims to be innocent and has an explanation for their charges - to clarify not saying you’re a criminal, but it’s the same concept -. The security process isn’t just a background check, the federal government is trying to determine whether you are credible and trustworthy enough to potentially hold a security clearance, while working a position where you literally have lives in your hands. If they see you were terminated from a previous employer, whatever the reason or your perceived explanation, it’s going to be a red flag.
 
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Rodsmash

Trusted Contributor
Messages
150
Wow, what a rant. You have no recourse and no means of appeal. As a new applicant, you are not entitled to anything and hiring is at the agency’s discretion. You may feel you were cheated out of a job, but when it boils down to it, you were not qualified based on your history. Period. You claim there’s an explanation to every concern the FAA noted, but honestly, every person in prison claims to be innocent and has an explanation for their charges - to clarify not saying you’re a criminal, but it’s the same concept -. The security process isn’t just a background check, the federal government is trying to determine whether you are credible and trustworthy enough to potentially hold a security clearance, while working a position where you literally have lives in your hands. If they see you were terminated from a previous employer, whatever the reason or your perceived explanation, it’s going to be a red flag.
There other part is there are just so many applicants in the pool and people waiting on classes that the FAA doesn’t need to deal with in depth investigations about anything really. I’m honestly surprised they even deal with Tier-2 from the mmpi. Probably due to legal medical reasons.
 

squab_captain

Member
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I'm no model citizen, but I don't think model citizens throw packages
let’s say as a doordasher you were sent to 7eleven for an order including seven large slushies. You arrive at the customer’s house, proceed to place them down, but you drop one. The customer finds out and writes a complaint to DoorDash that you threw their order. Congrats it’s now on your record

The circumstances matter. That is why they give you an opportunity to explain
 

ClearanceClarence

Legendary Member
Messages
1,362
let’s say as a doordasher you were sent to 7eleven for an order including seven large slushies. You arrive at the customer’s house, proceed to place them down, but you drop one. The customer finds out and writes a complaint to DoorDash that you threw their order. Congrats it’s now on your record

The circumstances matter. That is why they give you an opportunity to explain
Just realized you were the same guy bitching in the hiring thread about how ridiculous it was that they made you go for an additional hearing test. Honestly, you seem to have a pattern of thinking people are out to screw you and you have an excuse for everything. Your work history showed you were not trustworthy as a bartender or a delivery driver, so the FAA feels it would be a risk to trust you as an air traffic controller. End of story.
 
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It’s a numbers thing. I have been responsible for hiring people before and you sometimes take flyers on people. But if I called previous employers and they told me someone was ineligible for rehire for verbal altercations and throwing items belonging to clients I would likely look elsewhere.

And that’s with 3 or 4 dozen applicants. If I had literally thousands of applicants it’s not even a question.
 

squab_captain

Member
Messages
23
Just realized you were the same guy bitching in the hiring thread about how ridiculous it was that they made you go for an additional hearing test. Honestly, you seem to have a pattern of thinking people are out to screw you and you have an excuse for everything. Your work history showed you were not trustworthy as a bartender or a delivery driver, so the FAA feels it would be a risk to trust you as an air traffic controller. End of story.
if that were the extent of my work history I might agree with you. I still think they didn’t take a whole person approach. If you do then my other accomplishments would mitigate the poor work history, which is what I was led to believe. That I needed to mitigate the bad as best as I could
 

skykid11

Member
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57
if that were the extent of my work history I might agree with you. I still think they didn’t take a whole person approach. If you do then my other accomplishments would mitigate the poor work history, which is what I was led to believe. That I needed to mitigate the bad as best as I could
Well, how bad do you want to be ATC?

if that were the extent of my work history I might agree with you. I still think they didn’t take a whole person approach. If you do then my other accomplishments would mitigate the poor work history, which is what I was led to believe. That I needed to mitigate the bad as best as I could
You saying your negative employment records should be cancelled out because you had good records too is like a kid saying they shouldn’t be grounded for punching their sibling because they were good the rest of the day. What a ridiculous argument. Come on man.
 

ajmezz

Forum Sage
Messages
678
Now is your chance to look at this as a blessing in disguise and not be salty/disgruntled/bitter. Move on to something else. In case you weren't aware, there are a ton of people that have been on 6/1's for years, with more added to that list on a consistent basis and its not getting better any time soon. Could probably get your aircraft dispatch certification and have a more fulfilling career and life in aviation.
 

squab_captain

Member
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You saying your negative employment records should be cancelled out because you had good records too is like a kid saying they shouldn’t be grounded for punching their sibling because they were good the rest of the day. What a ridiculous argument. Come on man.
your analogy bears no semblance to my situation, but I’m not surprised because to you I’m a bitching schizophrenic criminal lmao.

Is the kid’s sibling a boy? Older or younger? Who is grounding the kid? What was the reason for the punch? Has it happened before? Will the kid provide witness testimony? By being good do you mean that the kid walked an elderly across the street or cured cancer?

I’m the one with the ridiculous argument?
 

ClearanceClarence

Legendary Member
Messages
1,362
your analogy bears no semblance to my situation, but I’m not surprised because to you I’m a bitching schizophrenic criminal lmao.

Is the kid’s sibling a boy? Older or younger? Who is grounding the kid? What was the reason for the punch? Has it happened before? Will the kid provide witness testimony? By being good do you mean that the kid walked an elderly across the street or cured cancer?

I’m the one with the ridiculous argument?
Pretty clear just by your posting here why they didn’t give you a clearance. Good luck in life.
 

squab_captain

Member
Messages
23
Sir, this is a Wendy’s…
I see this all the time, where is it from?
It’s a numbers thing. I have been responsible for hiring people before and you sometimes take flyers on people. But if I called previous employers and they told me someone was ineligible for rehire for verbal altercations and throwing items belonging to clients I would likely look elsewhere.

And that’s with 3 or 4 dozen applicants. If I had literally thousands of applicants it’s not even a question.
I hear you and there’s something to be said about volume and equal opportunity. To reiterate I furnished proof that me being ineligible for rehire was false
 

SolicitSVFR

Trusted Contributor
Messages
130
let’s say as a doordasher you were sent to 7eleven for an order including seven large slushies. You arrive at the customer’s house, proceed to place them down, but you drop one. The customer finds out and writes a complaint to DoorDash that you threw their order. Congrats it’s now on your record

The circumstances matter. That is why they give you an opportunity to explain
Unfortunately they have made up their mind about you. There is pretty much nothing that can be done. Yell, scream, vent, and call it unfair, then figure out another career and keep your nose clean till 2025 and reapply again. Or not, choice is yours
 

skykid11

Member
Messages
57
I see this all the time, where is it from?

I hear you and there’s something to be said about volume and equal opportunity. To reiterate I furnished proof that me being ineligible for rehire was false
Dude if you still want to be ATC, you're better off joining the US Army/US Air Force or even AdvancedATC. Every time you post here, you're slightly proving that you don't care enough.
 
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