Abolish NCEPT

[32andBelow]

Did you really expect the government to be efficient? Lolol. I work with a lot of people who have the mindset that they're getting paid the same whether they do a good job or not and you know what? They're right. Wish I could adopt such a mindset but it's not in my DNA unfortunately.

Uh no but as you seen with the training initiative they can just force people to do stuff. If they chose to.

 

[BigEggplant]

There is literally a guy up thread who got in when you could pick two states... Then goes on to mention he's moved twice

Yes but I’m in the same state, only a few miles down the road, worked my way up to a 12 over seven years. Are you saying I should stick to the six I was hired for and be happy with it?

 

[Acquired Taste]

Yes but I’m in the same state, only a few miles down the road, worked my way up to a 12 over seven years. Are you saying I should stick to the six I was hired for and be happy with it?

I think the point is that even if you send people to where they want to be initially, it doesn't fix anything because they're still going to transfer and need to train again. As you've said, you got where you wanted to be geographically right off the bat and still transferred twice and probably spent half of your 7 year career as a trainee. It wouldn't have made a difference if your first facility was in Arkansas or not, you still would've transferred.

 

[BigEggplant]

I think the point is that even if you send people to where they want to be initially, it doesn't fix anything because they're still going to transfer and need to train again. As you've said, you got where you wanted to be geographically right off the bat and still transferred twice and probably spent half of your 7 year career as a trainee. It wouldn't have made a difference if your first facility was in Arkansas or not, you still would've transferred.

Been in eleven years now, spent only three as a trainee, maybe a few months less than that. Your opinion is valid, but nobody is saying it will prevent transfers. If I had outside money or a good side gig my ass would still be at that level 6 with weekends off.

 

[Somenewguy]

What you are describing is pretty much the system prior to ncept….and it didn’t work….what happens when you’re in a building that is understaff and you get selected on one of the bids someplace else?

Then they send more new hires to your building, and/or increase the incentive for certified controllers to transfer there with a targeted job bid (move money, temporary contract with TDY pay, etc.). Some facilities are generally shittier than others and there will always be people trying to transfer out or quit. The FAA should give people a way to advance their careers out of shit holes and more fairly compensate the people stuck there.

The real issue I have with NCEPT is you have new hires given the opportunity to make level 12 pay and experienced controllers who have put many years in the agency might never be given the same opportunity that a new hire gets.

Example: your first facility assignment is a level 5 at 85% staffing. 10 controllers have paperwork in to transfer out and every trainee puts in paperwork to transfer the day after certification. You have a 10% shot every 2 years to transfer out assuming everyone has put in for a top priority facility. That's garbage. The FAA doesn't want to put more people in the pipeline even though they can see that 10 people want to transfer. They see the demand, but they don't feel like they have to acknowledge any more than what they can accommodate in that exact moment.

 

[CoffeeIV]

I think the point is that even if you send people to where they want to be initially, it doesn't fix anything because they're still going to transfer and need to train again. As you've said, you got where you wanted to be geographically right off the bat and still transferred twice and probably spent half of your 7 year career as a trainee. It wouldn't have made a difference if your first facility was in Arkansas or not, you still would've transferred.

Direct hire to facility would help a lot of this. Sure you still have people that want to chase money but I bet it would be a whole lot less moving around then there currently is.

 

[WavesAndClouds]

They're sending OTS hires to N90 now if you have a Long Island zip code

Lord, thank god I missed that train.

 

[ajmezz]

Then they send more new hires to your building, and/or increase the incentive for certified controllers to transfer there with a targeted job bid (move money, temporary contract with TDY pay, etc.). Some facilities are generally shittier than others and there will always be people trying to transfer out or quit. The FAA should give people a way to advance their careers out of shit holes and more fairly compensate the people stuck there.

The real issue I have with NCEPT is you have new hires given the opportunity to make level 12 pay and experienced controllers who have put many years in the agency might never be given the same opportunity that a new hire gets.

Example: your first facility assignment is a level 5 at 85% staffing. 10 controllers have paperwork in to transfer out and every trainee puts in paperwork to transfer the day after certification. You have a 10% shot every 2 years to transfer out assuming everyone has put in for a top priority facility. That's garbage. The FAA doesn't want to put more people in the pipeline even though they can see that 10 people want to transfer. They see the demand, but they don't feel like they have to acknowledge any more than what they can accommodate in that exact moment.

If only there was some kind of program that had a pot of money designated for hard to staff facilities. They could call it “Controller Incentive Pay” or something along those lines. Oh wait, we do have that. Unfortunately, places like DEN, that obviously have troubles with staffing and only a couple err’s each panel get some of that. Do that with multiple facilities across the nas and it doesn’t leave much for the places that actually need it.

 

[Seeyoufly]

Then they send more new hires to your building, and/or increase the incentive for certified controllers to transfer there with a targeted job bid (move money, temporary contract with TDY pay, etc.). Some facilities are generally shittier than others and there will always be people trying to transfer out or quit. The FAA should give people a way to advance their careers out of shit holes and more fairly compensate the people stuck there.

The real issue I have with NCEPT is you have new hires given the opportunity to make level 12 pay and experienced controllers who have put many years in the agency might never be given the same opportunity that a new hire gets.

Example: your first facility assignment is a level 5 at 85% staffing. 10 controllers have paperwork in to transfer out and every trainee puts in paperwork to transfer the day after certification. You have a 10% shot every 2 years to transfer out assuming everyone has put in for a top priority facility. That's garbage. The FAA doesn't want to put more people in the pipeline even though they can see that 10 people want to transfer. They see the demand, but they don't feel like they have to acknowledge any more than what they can accommodate in that exact moment.

Every two years? A facility in the situation you describe likely releases one to two people every ncept.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Direct hire to facility would help a lot of this. Sure you still have people that want to chase money but I bet it would be a whole lot less moving around then there currently is.

Once again, people value a job over no job, so your pool of applicants would still probably be extremely large.

As an example, back when picking two states was a thing, you had a way greater chance of getting hired by picking California, Florida, and/or Texas. And people who knew the system picked those states regardless of where the eventually wanted to end up.

 

[Somenewguy]

Every two years? A facility in the situation you describe likely releases one to two people every ncept.

Provably false, because it's not hypothetical. The FAA doesn't necessarily send anyone new to these facilities in a timely manner. They send one or two people a year. Maybe 70% make it, meaning you can count on one new hire per year to backfill staffing. The issue is that the 10 people waiting in line also have to compete with the "backfill". So unless you both want to go to a highly in demand facility, and are very lucky, you are going nowhere.

You seem like you don't know what you're talking about. So I'm going to assume that's the case until proven otherwise.

 

[Seeyoufly]

Provably false, because it's not hypothetical. The FAA doesn't necessarily send anyone new to these facilities in a timely manner. They send one or two people a year. Maybe 70% make it, meaning you can count on one new hire per year to backfill staffing. The issue is that the 10 people waiting in line also have to compete with the "backfill". So unless you both want to go to a highly in demand facility, and are very lucky, you are going nowhere.

You seem like you don't know what you're talking about. So I'm going to assume that's the case until proven otherwise.

Level 5 tower in my region has released 1-2 people every ncept for the past 4 years. You are not taking nest transfers into account for inbounds.

 

[Somenewguy]

I'm happy for it to be working out well in your specific facility. I don't know if you've seen any of the chatter, but it doesn't work that way everywhere.

 

[Bandit117]

What you are describing is pretty much the system prior to ncept….and it didn’t work….what happens when you’re in a building that is understaff and you get selected on one of the bids someplace else?

Easy. Throw a bid to that facility and add in a good chunk of move money. Not all facilities are equally desirable and it might take money to get someone to want to take a spot in places.

Or, send AAC people there, with priority. This doesn’t have to be hard.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I think the point is that even if you send people to where they want to be initially, it doesn't fix anything because they're still going to transfer and need to train again. As you've said, you got where you wanted to be geographically right off the bat and still transferred twice and probably spent half of your 7 year career as a trainee. It wouldn't have made a difference if your first facility was in Arkansas or not, you still would've transferred.

I can say with confidence this isn't true for the centers. If we are going to continue to send trainees straight to centers (which is a good idea) you will alleviate the vast majority of this issue for the Zs simply by giving trainees more input in where they want to go. There is very little incentive to move from an 11>12 etc etc if you are already in that tax bracket. My facility is filled with people (often second+ generation controllers) who only ever wanted to be in one place and got shipped across the country because their OKC graduation was off by a week.

 

[PapaKilo1317]

Why not just advertise every facility vacancy on USAJobs like the DoD does, or like they do with FLM announcements? People would apply where they actually want to go work, fill the rest with a lot more prior experience hires direct to the facilities, and give incentives for hard to staff facilities. Morale would be higher and people wouldn’t try to work the system as much (hardships/reinstatements). Have OTS vacancies choose states or at least regions before going to the academy so they’re not trying to find other ways to move as soon as they get to their first facility. Just my opinion. It means nothing to the agency/union, but career path is a choice to the individual, not the NCEPT lottery.

Would be nice if the FAA treated prior experience controllers like actual controllers. I would assert that the agency cares far far more about OTS folks than people that have experience and could come bolster numbers. But that would be to too smart anyways so they will continue to look away from the large pool of people who could come in and make this better.

 

[eltors0]

Would be nice if the FAA treated prior experience controllers like actual controllers. I would assert that the agency cares far far more about OTS folks than people that have experience and could come bolster numbers. But that would be to too smart anyways so they will continue to look away from the large pool of people who could come in and make this better.

This is a multifaceted response:

-The workforce has a chip on its shoulder that only views FAA experience as legitimate.

-People who have prior experience without an FAA certification have wildly different backgrounds. Some are shit hot while some are shit heads.

-Prior experience hires should only first staff 4 through 7s, just like how a retired military controller or off the street hire should. CPC reinstatements are their own beast but it should be prior facility or fall back to the bottom.

-Progressing to a higher tier facility should be career progression. Lateral moves in similar level group should be career enhancement.

-I’ve written about this before but in my opinion the level system is starting to not work well for staffing and pay purposes. It needs a revision or further declination between specialties (tower only/TRACON only/up and down/ center) or even a grouping method with current level structure.

 

[PapaKilo1317]

Obviously when you are not officially in the country club of current controllers I completely understand the sentiment. However I think it’s a little crazy to think prior experience controllers don’t know anything. That being said I completely agree that you can have a wide variety of competency between controller to controller but to me it makes no sense I had to learn and apply the same .65 and abide by FAA rules like others the only difference was I had a uniform on instead of a polo and slacks. But overall I completely agree with your response I just think the agency is missing out of very motivated people who are willing to get their foot in the door and go where they are told but are not utilized because the agency prioritizes “from within” folks.

 

[DADDYSbabyBIRD]

Obviously when you are not officially in the country club of current controllers I completely understand the sentiment. However I think it’s a little crazy to think prior experience controllers don’t know anything. That being said I completely agree that you can have a wide variety of competency between controller to controller but to me it makes no sense I had to learn and apply the same .65 and abide by FAA rules like others the only difference was I had a uniform on instead of a polo and slacks. But overall I completely agree with your response I just think the agency is missing out of very motivated people who are willing to get their foot in the door and go where they are told but are not utilized because the agency prioritizes “from within” folks.

Some prior experience people come in and are absolutely wonderful to work with and are great controllers... but then some come in and I have to wonder if they have even been to an airport before. It's actually laughable how bad some have been, supposedly checked out at different bases and contract towers, but complete garbage coworkers and controllers. One we had failed FD/CD ...at a vfr tower... "prior experience"... I still think that he might have made up his credentials or taken someone's identity or something. Then we get someone that comes in, admits they only worked Helicopters and never really controlled much but studied well and learned fast, fantastic controller. All that to say, I can see why the FAA should send prior experience controllers to the Academy and then also to lower levels to start. Are there some who could go right to a lvl 12 tommorow and be fine, yep... but there's no real good way of weeding them out other than academy and sending them somewhere.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Obviously when you are not officially in the country club of current controllers I completely understand the sentiment. However I think it’s a little crazy to think prior experience controllers don’t know anything. That being said I completely agree that you can have a wide variety of competency between controller to controller but to me it makes no sense I had to learn and apply the same .65 and abide by FAA rules like others the only difference was I had a uniform on instead of a polo and slacks. But overall I completely agree with your response I just think the agency is missing out of very motivated people who are willing to get their foot in the door and go where they are told but are not utilized because the agency prioritizes “from within” folks.

The success rate numbers aren't different enough compared to OTS. Things seem to have been better since the FAA started evaluating experience type.